ep145

Episode 145: HBP 27 – Bassackwards

The end is drawing near for our Puppet Master in “The Lightning-Struck Tower,” Chapter 27 of Half-Blood Prince. Join hosts Rosie, Kristen, Kat, and guest host Ashley (a Slytherin and MASSIVE Snape fan) as they take a bow to the fallen one.

On Episode 145 we discuss…

→ Episode 144 Recap: Protections & Regards; Accio! What?; Which Potion Master…?
→ PQOTW Responses
→ Draco takes a turn
→ Are we supposed to believe Albus or Draco?
→ Dramoine!
→ Remembering the theories
→ Question of the Week
→ Check out the Alohomora! store

To listen to the show, simply click the player below or direct download the episode. You can also subscribe to us on iTunes. For more information about the podcast and to find out how to be on the show, check out our Be On The Show! page.

Don’t forget to leave us a voicemail at our phone number: 1-206-GO-ALBUS (462-5287). Skype users can also send us a message to username AlohomoraMN. And as always, be sure to continue the discussion below or on our Forums!

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  • ISeeThestrals

    Here’s something I’ve always questioned when a new Harry Potter book was about to be released. Just before its release, we were always told a few things we would learn from the upcoming book (just a few minor plot points) but then we’re told someone will die. I believe I’ve asked this long ago on another sight and I think the answer I got was that he publishers made the decision to share that point for the sake of advertising to, of course, boost sales. But it had started to bug me that it was always pointed out that ‘someone will die’ from book 5 and onward. Of course it’s no surprise we would lose a lot in the final book, but it always seemed to be that pointing out such a fact messes with the reader’s anticipation of it. It’s like a bit of a distraction because while you’re reading, you’re just waiting to see which character will kick the bucket. I would have completely preferred not to see or hear that point made, because then I think the death would be more of a shock. The only death in the HP series that came as a shock and had me in tears was Sirius’s death. I remember as a point they said something like ‘a fan of Harry’s will die’ and I was expecting it to be Colin Creevey, who is a fan of Harry’s. So I was caught off guard, but at least by the time Sirius was going to die, I had forgotten a character was going to die in that book. But I didn’t forget for the following books, so long as we were told someone wasn’t going to make it.
    And let’s not forget the number of times people happily spoiled who would die in bookstores to those who hadn’t even read it yet.

    • SocksAreImportant

      I remember getting copies of book 5 and 6 and being told that a character was going to die. It made me mad as well because I would have wanted it to be a complete surprise. I am just thankful that the series isn’t being written today with the increased social media and internet outlets making it almost impossible to stay spoiler free for most things.

    • VoiceofDobby

      I actually started reading a little bit late. I started reading the books just before the release of Deathly Hallows, so i didn’t have any build up to the books, but at that point i was pretty disconnected from the fandom so i was safe anyways. I do imagine it would be annoying, since so many characters are set up with the possibility they could die.

  • Sian Zoe Dawson

    I remember the fourth time I read the Half-Blood Prince, that after Dumbledore had died, I cried on and off every five minutes until I reached the end of the book. I also cried during the movie (I’ve got a few things to say about that when we get to the movie episode) when he died, and not to be heartless or anything, but his was the only death that really affected me throughout the whole series and his was the only death that made me cry.

  • WhoDoYouKnowWho’sLostAButtock?

    Great podcast, as always.

    How many people knew things before they happened? I remember reading Book 5 when it came out. After I read it, I went back and read from the beginning, and went through Book 1-5 again. And I remember telling my sister, after reading Book 5 the second time, “Dumbledore is going to die in Book 6.” I didn’t know it would be Snape, but I remember when I read that it was, it was the linchpin for me that Snape was good. I can’t explain why, but the fact that Snape killed Dumbledore sealed it for me — there was an explanation to be had, and I knew we would get it. I still remember getting yelled at at the midnight release of Deathly Hallows for picking the “Trust Snape” badge at the door instead of “Snape is Evil.”

    But I also knew after reading Book 6 that Harry was a horcrux, and that Voldemort would have to kill that horcrux in Harry, which would answer the prophecy, and that Harry would die, or seem to, and then come back and we’d have a final showdown.

    Finally, I knew by the end of Book 5 that Lupin would be killed at the end, because all of those people who had the close, intimate ties with Harry’s parents would have to die. The old generation had to cease, for the new one to begin.

    I remember getting yelled at on some forums for sharing these ideas at the time (I didn’t really know much about how forums worked at the time anyway; now I understand what those kind of spoiler-y theories were like to read). But I just remember thinking that some things were obvious. Did anyone else figure these sorts of things out before the books confirmed them?

    • ISeeThestrals

      lol, I didn’t know there were “Trust Snape” or “Snape is Evil” badges. Interesting.
      As for figuring those clues out, I didn’t. I don’t try and solve the mystery while or after I’m reading. I’m not good at mystery solving in most cases, but when you think about it, Dumbledore’s death wasn’t or perhaps shouldn’t be that much of a surprise, even though I was surprised by it. And this thought comes from watching a documentary on Star Wars, where there was a point where they were saying something along the lines of how it was important for the wise character to die and leave the hero to continue on with his journey. Even without the documentary, we can come to the conclusion that the hero will be left, at some point, on his/her own to figure out how to stop some rising evil.

      • WhoDoYouKnowWho’sLostAButtock?

        That was almost entirely my reasoning at the time too. I explained it to my sister that way: Dumbledore has to die, because Harry needs to be completely alone and on his own for Book 7. He has to give Harry some information, and then he has to die (pull an Obi-Wan/Yoda, in other words) so that Harry can finally become the true hero.

        • ISeeThestrals

          Yes, it’s a staple of literature, but does it have to be set in stone that such a thing must happen for every hero? I’d like to think it doesn’t. In most cases it creates quite an impact on the hero, if not making it a bit of a convenient way to get said hero fighting on his own. However in the case of Harry Potter, if Dumbledore had not died, he might as well have joined Harry, Ron and Hermione on their Horcrux hunt because Harry would be relying heavily on Dumbledore for help.

          • WhoDoYouKnowWho’sLostAButtock?

            No, I agree — it doesn’t HAVE to happen. I think it falls in with the arc of the Epic Hero that’s been around for ages, though.

            People have been killing mentors and lovers in literature to motivate our heroes for ages, when you think about it. George R. R. Martin definitely exploits this, but in a more complicated way… But I liked that Rowling did not kill characters purely for motivational value. Dumbledore had to die, yes, but it had just as much to do with Dumbledore’s path as it did with Harry’s. And she, blessedly, didn’t resort to lazy plot devices like Woman in Refrigerator to motivate our hero. Thank goodness.

      • Silverdoe25

        I so remember heading to Borders for my Trust Snape sticker. I put it on my car. Probably should have saved it as some sort of collector’s item, but I got more of a kick out of displaying it.

    • Hufflepug

      I had my worries about Sirius as soon as I started reading book five and I always figured in the back of my mind that Dumbledore was going to die for the same reason that you and ISeeThestrals have already discussed. That one was spoiled for me though, and even though I saw it coming I was still mad about the spoiler! I truly never saw most of the deaths in DH coming, especially Dobby and Fred. When Fred died I threw my book down and just cried – I think that one caught me the most off guard of them all. I was convinced Ron was going to die so I’m happy that didn’t come true. I had a feeling that Harry would be a Horcrux but I didn’t theorize the full extent of his connection to Voldemort and how he would have to sacrifice himself in order to destroy that piece of soul. It’s amazing how much you predicted! Maybe you should take Trelawney’s position :)

      • WhoDoYouKnowWho’sLostAButtock?

        Ha! I cannot claim to be possessed of the Sight, sadly. Dobby I did not see coming either. I thought one of the twins might die but I was hoping against it. I think I may have an overly analytical mind when it comes to literature… But it was so wonderful, even having figured all of that out, to still be surprised by the books. Who could have possibly imagined the Deathly Hallows? That’s why I love Rowling — she surprises me, and when it comes to books and movies and literature, that’s admittedly a hard thing to find.

        Oh, Dobby, I sobbed. I thought Sirius was being telegraphed pretty heavily, didn’t you? I admit I was also worried that she’d be cruel to us and kill Hagrid. I’m so glad she spared him :)

        • Hufflepug

          Rowling is just like Dumbledore! She gives you just enough information to speculate but she holds back the essentials that you need to piece it all together. Who could have predicted the Horcruxes, either? Unless there were some very smart readers who looked all the way back to Chamber of Secrets and latched onto the idea of the diary, of course :) and yeah, I was worried about Sirius ever since the end of PoA and when she announced that someone would die I just knew somehow that it would be him. Then when I started reading OoTP his recklessness all but confirmed it. Poor Sirius :( Hagrid always seemed like he would survive, but there were a couple of scares in DH where I thought he would die.

      • PigPuff

        Fred was the worst for me too :(

        • Hufflepug

          Ugh, I’m still not over his death or Dobby’s!

  • WhoDoYouKnowWho’sLostAButtock?

    I can see that there will be MUCH more discussion of this in Book 7 podcasts, but… I have lots to say about Dumbledore. Particularly on this show, they talked about Dumbledore using Petrificus Totalus on Harry to keep him hidden, and the hosts seemed to think this was cruel and torturous. In a way, I get that, but it was truly the kindest thing Dumbledore could do here. He had to protect Harry, and he didn’t know what was going on in the castle. He was greatly weakened and seemed to think his time was close. Then along comes Draco, and now Dumbledore knows his time is here — he has accepted it, I think. He knows that it is time, and now that Draco has brought his plan to fruition, which he must have worked out through the Dark Mark on the castle, he knows that Severus will have to kill him to stop Draco doing it. The feeling I get from Dumbledore is that he is okay with this — he is ready. But he has to make one last attempt to save Draco.

    The hosts talked about how what Dumbledore is doing here is for Harry’s benefit. I agree with that to a point — but for once, I think what Dumbledore is doing here is more for Malfoy’s benefit than Harry’s. Yes, Dumbledore wants Harry to hear what he hears, he wants to put together the last pieces of the puzzle, but Dumbledore is also stalling, and he is trying to connect with Draco. Dumbledore’s concern for Draco has always interested me and I’m surprised we haven’t talked more about it. Dumbledore makes Snape swear to kill him so that he won’t be killed in unpleasant or humiliating ways, that is true — but it is mainly because he doesn’t want Draco to become a murderer. He wants to save him from that.

    It is here that Dumbledore reveals his truest self, the true end result of the man he had become, after all the lies, misdirection, and manipulation — in his final moments, he is a man who is full of secrets, yes, but who is expending the last bits of his energy to protect two students — to keep Harry from being killed before he can accomplish the mission, and to save Draco from the guilt and moral damage that murder would wreak upon him. He had, in the end, become a man whose compassion for his children, his students, was strongest. He knew Draco was the son of a Death Eater who was trying to murder him, but he still felt compassion, still believed that Draco was worth saving, that he could be saved.

    He is in the end the consummate teacher. And he knows that life is unpleasant, and dangerous. He needs Harry to see Draco’s struggle. He also needs Harry to see how he dies, because as the only non-Death Eater witness to that (aside from Snape), Harry is the only one who understands what happened — which leads directly to the final secret in Book 7, his understanding of who truly controls the Elder Wand. He had to see Snape kill Dumbledore to understand that. That is also something Dumbledore knows.

    Is it cruel to make Harry see all this? Maybe. But Dumbledore, and I think Rowling, understand that growing up, and teaching children, is not always about shielding them and protecting them. It’s about giving them the tools to deal with the horrors life can deal out. People get upset at what Dumbledore demands Harry face, at what he puts him through — but it has to be done. Dumbledore knows it. And I always thought that was the point of Hogwarts, anyway. The school is wildly dangerous, as is the magical world, and we throw children into it. Some might see that as cruel. But there is nothing to be gained by demanding that children be safe at all times, because one day they will be adults who know no way of protecting themselves.

  • CrochetWitch78

    When reading, and re-reading this part of the book, I was really keen on
    the conversation Harry overhears between Snape and Dumbledore, which if
    course Dumbledore knows he’s overhearing…. Even though Harry doesn’t
    catch the whole conversation eluding to the fact that Dumbledore was
    cursed destroying the ring and was dying anyway….It was part of the
    “grand plan” necessary to again, have Harry be in the right place, see
    and assume certain things, however not able to directly act on them to
    move his journey forward in the hunt for horcruxes, and his understanding of the Hallows.

    I do think
    Dumbledore knew what was going on, he knew Draco was there to kill him,
    and he knew Draco wouldn’t be able to go through with it, which is why
    he told Snape in the overheard conversation he’d have to be the one to do the deed. Also, to keep up
    Snape’s ruse of being in the Death Eater inner circle, it was VERY important
    that other Death Eaters see him kill Dumbledore (esp Bellatrix, who is
    generally suspicious) so he can continue HIS journey of ultimately
    overthrowing the DL.

  • Lisa

    Sorry for the off-topic question, but does anyone know how long it takes to get an email activating your account once you’ve filled a registration on the Alohomora forums? I registered two days ago and still haven’t received any email activating my account so I can’t post or do anything. Did anyone else encounter the same problem? There might be other people trying to register and not being able to. I tried with two different email adresses and clicked on the resend email link twice but still nothing. Any help would be appreciated, and great show as usual!

    • WhoDoYouKnowWho’sLostAButtock?

      I had the same problem, so I just emailed one of the moderators. They fixed it for me.

      • Lisa

        Could you give me the name of the person or their email adress please? I have no idea who to ask and apparently you have to be registered in order to see who the admins are on the forums.

        • WhoDoYouKnowWho’sLostAButtock?

          I just sent it to alohomora@mugglenet.com, because I wasn’t sure either, so I just sent the email with my info and asked if they could direct me to the right person. I got an email back from a moderator but I”m not sure they would want me to post their email address here, so I’d go through the alohomora one.

    • SnapesManyButtons

      Hope you get it fixed, because we need more people on the forums. Looking forward to seeing you there.

    • Kat

      Accounts on our forums are moderated by volunteers, and can take up to 72 hours to be approved. Please be patient!

      If after 72 hours you have not been approved, email alphomorapodcast@gmail.com and we can help.

      • Lisa

        Thank you Kat! I did get the approval mail today, so yay. Sorry, I just jumped to the conclusion something was wrong when it didn’t come automatically upon registration. My bad.

  • Yo Rufus On Fire

    In response to Gryffindora the Explora comment that was read on the show. I very much like your comment, but I have to disagree with you. You say that the locket, and the ring had more protection then the rest and the others were just placed without protection. But the other items did have protection! The hufflepuff cup was placed in Gringotts in the Lestranges Vault that was being guarded by a dragon. If Bellatrix never question Hermione about what else they took in her vault then they would have never known a horcrux was in there! Gringotts while magical, doesn’t have a direct connection to Voldemort, so why look there when hunting for horcruxes? Gringotts is incredibly guarded with all kinds of magical enchantments. “No place safer, except Hogwarts” right?

    Which brings me to the Diadem. Hogwarts is the safest place to hide something and on top of hiding it at Hogwarts he put it in the room of requirement where everything is hidden. Not a lot of people know about the room of requirement, so that’s a great place to hide a hocrux, and the room huge so big, that navigating yourself around it would be immensely hard. If Harry never knew about the room of requirement, then he would never figure out that a horcrux was placed there.

    As for the Diary, I found this quote from Dumbledore. “I understand that Voldemort had told him the diary would cause the Chamber of Secrets to reopen, because it was cleverly enchanted. Had Lucius known he held a portion of his master’s soul in his hands he would undoubtedly have treated it with more reverence — but instead he went ahead and carried out the plan for his own ends: by planting the diary upon Arthur Weasley’s daughter, he hoped to discredit Arthur, have me thrown out of Hogwarts and get rid of a highly incriminating object in one stroke.” The Diary was in Lucius’s care, and it was safe at his mansion. No one would think to look there. Had Malfoy never given the diary to Ginny, it would have never been found. It was for Lucius’s own personal gain that he decided to give it to Ginny.

    Nagini is always with Voldemort, by is side, so she is always protected. I believe that all the hocruxes were well protected. It may look like the Locket and Ring were more important because they had levels of enchantments, but so did the rest of them.

    • Hufflepug

      Yes! Voldemort himself was convinced that the diadem was the most well-hidden Horcrux of them all.

      • Silverdoe25

        The other piece to consider is that I believe Voldemort thought it was only a matter of time before he was running things at both Hogwarts and the Ministry. He pretty much thought he was invincible at that point. The three horcruxes in question: diadem, diary, and cup would have been in places that he was planning on having easy access to. It only makes sense that the ring and the locket would have greater protection because they were removed from his close supervision. In addition, I think the elaborate protection measures were as much Voldemort patting himself on the back for his skill and genius as they were booby traps for the horcruxes.

        • Dumbledore’s through & through

          Mmmmh, but he also knew Dumbledore was his biggest opponent, the one wizard in the whole wide world that he ever feared. Yet he put the diadem right under his long crooked nose. Sometimes I wonder whether both, Voldemort and Dumbledore, have moments when they can’t help but see their fight as a wicked kind of game, and Voldemort goes like: “Here, look, I put my horcrux in your castle and I dare you to find it, but you won’t, because I’m still cleverer than you! BÄM!” It’s the same when Dumbledore is disappionted by the door in the cave you pay with blood: “Come on, Tom, you could have done better, don’t you? That’s not very creative, try to give me a really demanding task for once!”

          • HowAmIGoingToTranslateThis

            YES! They make a game out of it! Who’s the better wizard? Who is more sneaky and inventive?

  • DisKid

    I remember the Dumbledore is not dead site as well and I was also invested in that theory! Unfortunately, it got debunked by JK Rowling before the 7th book came out. If my memory is correct, a fan asked her about that and she said “I know there’s a website called ‘Dumbledoreisnotdead. com’ and I apologize to them, but don’t expect Dumbledore to pull a Gandulf”. Right after that, they changed the name of their website but they did make a statement saying they were still clinging onto belief because she would have no other way to answer that or it would spoil too much. I remember thinking: it’s JK Rowling. She’d find a way around that question if he was alive. She’d never lie and say he’s not alive if he is. She debunked a lot of theories pretty much right after this book. I think this was when she went into cyber world.

    On a humorous note when I saw you labled a topic as “Dramione” that reminded me of, back in the day, when people were guessing who future couples were going to be in the books. A lot of people said Draco and Hermione. This was debunked by JK Rowling, but that didn’t stop fanfiction. It’s too bad twitter wasn’t around back then cause Dramione would have been an excellent hashtag for that!

    • Hufflepug

      I just reread DH and I had forgotten how many times Ron speculated that Dumbledore was still alive. I wonder if she included those bits as a nod towards those theories? Those poor people probably read most of the final book waiting for Dumbledore to pop back up shouting “I’M ALIVE, BABY!”

      • DisKid

        I forgot about that too til you mentioned it. Perhaps she was nodding to those theories, she knew about that website while writing it.

    • SocksAreImportant

      Yeah I remember when Sirius died there was always a question on whether or not he might still be alive behind the veil or something. With Dumbledore, she flat out said that he was dead. Funny because we end up getting a long conversation with Dumbledore in DH.

  • MartinMiggs

    We do know when Voldemort placed the locket in the cave because he asked Regulus to have Kreacher help place the locket in the basin. This was some time in between Regulus graduating from Hogwarts and his death at 18 (in 1979). Snape has finished school around this timeframe so he could be a Death Eater at this point and that means he also could’ve brewed the potion for Voldemort as well

    • Ellen Dawn

      I love the theory that he unknowingly helped create the potion. I’m glad this keeps it alive!

  • Mahalia Sutton- Ally

    I wanted to comment on the part in the chapter where Snape looks at Dumbledore with a look of disgust. I think he was using legilimency to read his mind and he was disgusted at what he say ,(Dumbledore wanted him to kill him). Knowing what we later find out about Snape him feeling that Dumbledore always made him do these dirty jobs if u will. We know he hated playing double spy. I’m sure Dumbeldore wanted Snape to continue this after he killed him . It’s a lot to get from one look but it’s a theory.

    • PigPuff

      Good theory!! That or I think Snape is just really good at acting haha.

  • The_Potter_Dude

    On the show you guys talked about how does Dumbledore know very very advanced magic. I think it is because he is about 150 years old when Harry goes to school and when Ariana dies he is like 20 years old that is 130 years of knowledge . It is very simple.

    • PigPuff

      True but Dumbledore was obviously very gifted as a teenager too.
      Perhaps it has something to do with how much magical blood you have in you? Kind of like star wars, if you’re a really powerful jedi you have alot of Midi-chlorians.
      This could be the difference between someone like Neville and someone like Dumbledore. Even on a simpler level, why are some people so naturally tallented at maths/ painting etc and other aren’t.

      I’d say Dumbledore was extremely talented, paired with a desire for knowledge and learning.

      • The_Potter_Dude

        I think why Dumbledore thrived and Neville didn’t until his 7th year its because Dumbledore was relied on when his mom died and his dad went to Azkaban, his family relied on him. Neville was not relied on until the Carrows and Snape came to power at Hogwarts. He had to help his friend and he came through.

  • The_Potter_Dude

    Neville was the only one in Harry’s year who might become Headmaster at Hogwarts because he is the only who became a Hogwarts teacher.

  • The_Potter_Dude

    Also what is Ginny’s job after 17 years of age?

    • SnapesManyButtons

      Ginny became a Quidditch player for the Hollyhead Harpies and later a Quidditch correspondent for the Daily Prophet.

      • The_Potter_Dude

        Thanks for the help.

  • The_Potter_Dude

    Does Ron join the Ministry if so that draws more similarities that Ron has with Percy

    • SnapesManyButtons

      Ron became an Auror along with Harry for a while and eventually ended up working with George at Weasleys’ Wizard Wheezes.

      • The_Potter_Dude

        Ron seems less qualify at being a Auror than Harry.

        • HowAmIGoingToTranslateThis

          He must have been good enough for Kingsley to let him do the job. In a way they had been doing the job all the time, with next to no magical training in their first year, and all Ron could rely on was his chess mastership and good faith that he would not be killed.

          • The_Potter_Dude

            Or maybe because Ron is a family friend Kingsley gave him the job along with Harry. Also that is probably why Harry and Ron did not go back to Hogwarts to finish their Newts

          • Eileen_Prince/Jones

            There’s a thing I read on pinterest that said Kingsley let anyone become an auror with no newts if they fought in the battle of hogwarts.

          • HowAmIGoingToTranslateThis

            That makes me think, what are DADA NEWTs like? Surely they are less dangerous than a battle.

          • Hufflepug

            I think Patronuses would be NEWT level, wouldn’t you? Harry and his classmates were pretty ahead of their year in learning them. And you probably learn all about dark-detecting devices and advanced protective spells far past the basics like Stupefy and Protego. I think it would be awesome!

          • HowAmIGoingToTranslateThis

            I’ll come back to that later, NEWT Level DADA is fascinating!

          • PigPuff

            Yeah from memory Harry got extra points in his OWLs for producing a Patronus. Must be NEWT level magic… Harry can be good at spells if he tries lol

          • Hufflepug

            He’s a prodigy at DADA! He just doesn’t care much about his other classes.

          • HowAmIGoingToTranslateThis

            So imagine Lupin teaching NEWT level DADA, which he did, but we don’t learn about it from the text. Percy and Oliver were in 7th year during that time, but they don’t tell us anything about it. From what we see in 3rd year, from what we see in 6th year in Snape’s class, from what we observe during the DA-meetings and from other occasions I’ll put together a suggestion what NEWT level DADA includes:
            – nonverbal spellcasting: see below how to learn it
            – protective spells for persons, places, objects
            – dark detectors and how to tell if they are working correctly
            – Inferi & Co: dark creatures made by wizards / witches
            – Fighting off curses, Fake-Moody-Style
            – Healing minor injuries: cuts, bruises, lumps
            – Patronuses, individual training offered for those who have trouble or wish to practise alone
            – How to get help, messages that are faster than sending owls
            – Blocking curses
            – How to wrap an enemy defenseless for capture
            – Unforgivable curses and how to deal with them ethically
            – The truth about Parseltongue: anyone can copy it
            – Beyond aguamenti: Dealing with fiendfyre and other ridiculously dangerous stuff
            – You and your wand: cores, care, personalisation
            – magical traps and explosives
            – concealment
            – the DADA aspects of being an animagus

            How Lupin teaches nonverbal spellcasting:
            “Let’s all say the spell together, without wands! Stupefy” (Everyone goes “oh no, not again”, so all the students speak with less enthusiasm as usual when shocking each other)
            “Alright, now let’s turn down the volume and try to say it so quietly that I can’t hear all of you!”
            (Half the class whispers, the others try to hear if someone really says it)
            “Great. Now each one of you, one after the other, say it as quietly as possible. And then repeat it over and over in your head. Make sure you get the pronounciation right: it’s STUpefy.”
            (He gives them a few moments to do as he told them)
            “Now try it on the dummy, with your wand. Try five times nonverbal, then once whispering. As soon as you succeed in stunning the dummy nonverbally, come over to me for a new task.
            Everyone with a dogwood wand, I’ll give you a replacement wand just for this class, because dogwood wands refuse to perform nonverbal magic.”

            (The class starts to try stunning the dummy, and because they include the whispered incantation, they see how their spell works. They don’t feel like they are failing all the time, they just get used to thinking incantations in their heads, imagining the result and then proceed to seeing it work. While they practise, Lupin tells them that alder wood wands are very well suited for nonverbal magic, but no one in the class has one. He promises them that they’ll invite Ollivander for a lesson on wandlore in regards to DADA.)
            “Homework: Practise as often as you can. Try to hex your friends silently so that they don’t notice until everyone laughs at them, and try not to get hexed by using silent protection charms!!”

            After a few weeks, when nearly everyone has succeeded in using nonverbal magic, Lupin asks them what they have observed about it. They tell him and each other about the advantages of nonverbal spells and about the difficulties. They exchange tips about what to focus on: the mental picture of the spell effect or on the pronounciation.

            Later in the year Lupin tells them about wandless magic. That few people can do it, but they can try to lumos their wand when they put their hand beside it. Nox and periculum also may work without holding the wand, and he asks them to not try this with more complex spells, because unfocused magic is dangerous and some people died when they performed magic without wands.
            “Apparating without a wand won’t work. Muggle martial arts will be more effective when trying to evade someone shooting curses at you.”

            To tie this post back to the episode: What if Harry had been able to throw the full-body-bind-curse off? Would he stay hidden or attack everyone? Would he disarm the Death Eaters nonverbally?

          • thequeerweasleycousin

            I LOVE that! Especially your “The truth about Parseltongue”-point. Nevertheless I feel like healing minor injuries could be something thought earlier, it’s so damn useful!

          • HowAmIGoingToTranslateThis

            yes, it is very useful, but as we learn in CoS it should be done right or not at all. Human transfiguration is started in 6th year, so that would be the right time to introduce healing scratches and stuff. Even Hermione, being so capable and all, did not dare to do more than put Dittany on Ron’s wounds in DH. Imagine someone trying to vanish a lump and then ending up with a hole in their skin! (Eloise Midgeon?)

          • thequeerweasleycousin

            Yeah, thinking also about Lockhard and Harry’s deboned arm, you’re probably right…

          • HowAmIGoingToTranslateThis

            and while we’re at it: a joined muggle studies and defence lesson about muggle weapons would be a good idea.

          • Hufflepug

            Phenomenal! You have put together so much information that all would make perfect sense in that class and I think the way you described Lupin’s lesson would be spot on for his character and would be the. coolest. class. ever! I never thought about learning wandlore at Hogwarts – FASCINATING! Nice knowledge of it too! My wand is dogwood so I guess I would be one of the ones who would need a replacement for the day :)

            I think Harry tried as hard as he could to throw off the curse and he was obviously unsuccessful. If he had been a bit more practiced in that then maybe, but the last time he really threw off any curse was his fourth year and it took a lot of effort. But if he could throw off the curse, he would undoubtedly try to save Dumbledore. Depending on when he threw it off, I see him disarming Malfoy and the Death Eaters nonverbally while under his cloak, stepping aside for Snape because he probably assumes Snape will help Dumbledore, and then immediately going after Snape.

          • HowAmIGoingToTranslateThis

            Thank you! It’s fun for me to make up classes or lessons like this, I’m not a teacher, but I have very high respect for them and I believe Lupin is a good teacher role model.

            Dogwood wands are playful, and I like how it fits your username! After learning nonverbal spells with a replacement wand, the students can consider buying a second wand for themselves if they are planning to use nonverbal magic a lot beyond school. I like the idea of someone owning three or four wands and picking each one for individual tasks.

            You don’t throw off Dumbledore’s spells. Not even Harry can do that. He managed it in the classroom after several tries, but I think it’s different if you cannot move your body or if you cannot “move” your brain like when you’re under the imperius curse. And Harry just has to NOT jump on the desk, which is easier than trying to move when you’re petrificustotalused. doesn’t work as a verb.

          • Hufflepug

            I was so excited to get the dogwood wand on Pottermore because the description is wonderful, I love dogs, and the dogwood is my state tree :) And the idea of having multiple wands for different tasks is great. I wonder if the Weasleys ever ask to borrow each other’s wands if they need to do something specific. I bet all of the Weasley kids would fight each other for the best wand if they had to do something, like if one wand was faster at degnoming the garden or if another wand was quieter and could help them pull off a sneaky prank :)

            Good point about not throwing off Dumbledore’s spells. Even when Dumbledore is in a weaker state, he is still one of the greatest wizards of all time. I also think the nature of the Imperius Curse is different from that of Petrificus Totalus. The Imperius Curse tries to direct your will so it seems intuitive to know how to fight it. Petrificus Totalus seems to shut down all of your muscles and motor nerves. No way to fight that with your willpower.

          • HowAmIGoingToTranslateThis

            The description is great, all of the wand woods get personalities and I like how you can treat that as something that relates to your own life or just take it as a fun fact. Mine is spruce, combined with a phoenix feather core, and if I take it as a kind of prediction what might come up in my future that is really intriguing. And I love dogs, too.

            We don’t know any of the Weasley’s wands except for Ron’s. In my headcanon Fred and George have the same wand cores, but different woods. Do you use wands for degnoming the garden? When we see them do that in CoS they just grab them and toss them over the hedge.

            Maybe it is possible to fight off the Petrificus Totalus when you are able to perform a Finite Incantatem nonverbally and have your wand still in your hand. You wouldn’t be able to do the wand movement, but there is a small chance it might work.

          • Hufflepug

            You’re right, that was a brainfart on my part :) I wonder why they don’t just Accio them though. Maybe that was because they were still underage at the time. Of course, “chase the gnome around the garden” would certainly be a fun game.

            I bet a very powerful wizard would be able to do that, but there must be a lot more that goes into Finite Incantatem than we know since we don’t see people doing that a lot when they’re under the body-bind curse. Maybe it’s difficult to perform nonverbally or it requires a specific wand movement.

          • The_Potter_Dude

            i never know that

  • The_Potter_Dude

    Does Dumbledore know how to use very dark magic because he spent a lot of time with Grindelwald.

    • PigPuff

      I’m not sure if he learnt it from Grindlewald, I don’t think they spent that much time together either, wasn’t it just a summer or something?
      I think Dumbledore probably knows dark magic, and respects it but doesn’t use it. Otherwise how would he know about Horcruxes etc. I’d say good and bad magic are all intertwined in a way.

  • Hufflepug

    Sorry if I’m jumping ahead a little here, but I was wondering about the state of Snape’s soul and whether he split it by killing Dumbledore, so I went back and looked at this quote from The Prince’s Tale:

    “If you don’t mind dying,” said Snape roughly, “why not let Draco do it?”
    “That boy’s soul is not yet so damaged,” said Dumbledore. “I would not have it ripped apart on my account.”
    “And my soul, Dumbledore? Mine?”
    “You alone know whether it will harm your soul to help an old man avoid pain and humiliation,” said Dumbledore.

    I think Snape has damaged his soul in the past. Nothing like what Voldemort did, but we can assume he has used dark magic and potentially killed people as a Death Eater. We also know that every death which has been brought about by the prophecy can be traced back to him, so he has quite a bit of blood on his hands. And we know that the only thing that can mend someone’s soul is remorse, which can be so painful and difficult to accept that people have killed themselves so as to not face it, which was exactly what happened to the Bloody Baron. In the grand debate about Snape, I think it’s important to remember that above everything else, the reason Snape was so loyal to Dumbledore was because he experienced the power of remorse and did not back away from the pain that comes with accepting it. He let the remorse consume his life: remorse for causing the Potters’ deaths, for using the term Mudblood, for following Voldemort’s hateful regime, for everything. That’s why he was so concerned for the state of his soul when discussing Dumbledore’s plan. He didn’t want to damage it again because he was still living through the process of mending it which allowed him to understand the true value of the soul. The soul is a mysterious thing and I like to think even Dumbledore doesn’t know everything about it. But Dumbledore knew Snape would be able to kill him without splitting his soul because the power of Snape’s remorse would never permit him to kill Dumbledore, or arguably anyone else, unless he had truly been commanded by the person to do so. Again, sorry if this post jumped ahead! DH is fresh in my mind from recently rereading it and it’s hard not to bring the end of that book up at this point in the series.

    • MoodyHorcrux

      Yes. Yes yes yes. I am a big Snape fan and I agree – I think Dumbledore and Snape have a very special relationship. I mean – would Dumbledore dare ask anyone else to do the task Snape has been demanded to perform? Would anyone else have been ABLE to?

      • Hufflepug

        Exactly! No one else was in Snape’s unique position as both a trusted Death Eater and a man whose true loyalties lied on the side that was against Voldemort. In order to be split down the middle like that and to be able to pull it off, he basically needed to understand how it felt to go through that kind of hell and make it out to learn about what his true morals should be. I do think his soul is damaged and wrinkled and beaten up, which can be seen in how he generally treats people so poorly, but at the heart it is intact which makes the difference.

    • WhoDoYouKnowWho’sLostAButtock?

      I also think that Dumbledore asking Snape to kill him makes a good deal of difference. Snape would never kill Dumbledore on his own volition. Dumbledore is, in effect, asking Snape for what amounts to a mercy killing, or euthanasia. Wouldn’t this sort of thing have some bearing on the morality of it all, and therefore the magic or whatever it is that governs that take that into account?

      I mean, it isn’t actually murder, is it? If it is agreed upon? Wouldn’t it work similarly to the Elder Wand? Snape never triumphed or conquered over Dumbledore, so he never won the Wand. I think Dumbledore knew that, which is why he said what he did — ‘only you will know if it will damage your soul to help an old man die painlessly,’ in effect. The implication, I think, is — it wouldn’t.

      • MartinMiggs

        “only you will know” could go either way

        • Hufflepug

          Maybe that means it depends on Snape’s relationship to Dumbledore. It tests his loyalty: if it is truly a mercy kill that he wouldn’t have done otherwise, then it wouldn’t split his soul. But if there was any ounce of hatred or any feelings of success and dominance in killing him despite it being mainly because Dumbledore asked him, it might be a different story.

          • MartinMiggs

            This is no test because he trusts Severus completely.

          • Hufflepug

            I didn’t mean a test by Dumbledore, I meant a more general and finite test on Snape’s character. Dumbledore obviously trusts him and he is truly loyal to Dumbledore – this is just the moment where it is most definitive, even if the reader doesn’t know that yet.

      • SnapesManyButtons

        I think one big clue that it’s not murder is that Dumbledore wants Snape to kill him so that he will die undefeated as the Elder Wand’s last Master. If it were true murder, then the Mastery of the Wand would transfer to Snape, but Harry tells Voldemort in chapter 36 of Deathly Hallows, “Dumbledore intended to die undefeated, the wand’s last true master!” He did not believe that Snape killing him would be murder. He wouldn’t risk Snape becoming the Wand’s Master and then Voldemort gaining the Wand by killing Snape, as he tried to do. I think when he said “You alone know whether it will harm your soul…” he was being facetious because Snape should have known that what Dumbledore was asking of him wouldn’t risk his soul either.

        • PigPuff

          So true…it seems magic knows the intentions behind things. It’s not logical, it’s simply magic.

      • HowAmIGoingToTranslateThis

        I believe the agreement they make is similar to the kind of contracts that people set up for emergencies, so that one person is entitled to decide which medical procedures are to be applied or not applied. Would you consider it murder if a person tells the hospital staff to not give their parent a blood transfusion if the parent had written down their wish accordingly? I think not.

        Dumbledore is ready for his next adventure, his mind well prepared, he just needs someone to open the door for him.

        • Hufflepug

          I agree! That’s a great connection to make.

      • Eileen_Prince/Jones

        I could be mistaken, but I thought it said somewhere that Dumbledore had meant for Snape to win the Elder wand??

        • WhoDoYouKnowWho’sLostAButtock?

          That is true, you’re right.

          • Eileen_Prince/Jones

            Really? Cool…do u have the chapter he says that in? I think it was the kings cross chapter in deathly hallows…? I don’t have my books handy 😛

          • Hufflepug

            I’m 90% sure Harry figures it out and says it to Voldemort in The Flaw in the Plan. I could be wrong though! I was confused about that up until this week too lol.

          • WhoDoYouKnowWho’sLostAButtock?

            I believe it is in King’s Cross chapter, where Dumbledore admits that he had not intended things to work out quite that way, but it is definitely all hashed out in 36, “The Flaw in the Plan,” where Harry throws that ‘last, final secret’ at Voldemort.

        • SnapesManyButtons

          No, Dumbledore meant for Snape to kill him by agreement so the wand would not change allegiance and he would die as its last master. When he is facing Voldemort at the end, Harry
          tells Voldemort (in chapter 36 of Deathly Hallows), “Dumbledore intended to
          die undefeated, the wand’s last true master!”

          It’s like when they practiced disarming each other in the DA, the wands don’t change owners unless they are won in a true battle.

          • Eileen_Prince/Jones

            Huh ok…i wonder what I’m mixing that up with..movies maybe…? Thanks for clearing that up :-)

    • SpinnersEnd

      I think murder destroys your soul because of the malice or spite involved. I think it is the negative emotions that harm.

      Snape’s soul would already have been damage from the ill will he bore when he joined up as a Death Eater. We don’t know if Snape has killed anyone prior to this point in the book (I’m willing to bet he has), but I think the hate and animosity he felt, especially toward James, would have been enough to damage his soul.

      I doubt killing Dumbledore under these circumstances would have done more damage. This doesn’t qualify as “murder”. Snape didn’t do it out of spite or anger. He did it because Dumbledore asked and it was part of the plan.

      • Hufflepug

        Definitely. I think murder – true murder, not what Snape did – is the only thing that can rip it in half since that’s what has been suggested in the books, but I agree that hatred and anger and bitterness can damage it as well without necessarily splitting it in half which I think happened to Snape plenty in his past.

    • PigPuff

      Poor Snape!!
      I think we can assume he has killed in the past, and had his hand in some very dark magic.

  • Hufflepug

    This chapter always reminds me of that scene near the end of The Sound of Music when Rolfe is pointing the gun at Captain Von Trapp but hesitates and the captain recognizes that he is too pure of heart to kill him so he tries to convince him to come over to the good side. Dumbledore and Draco have pretty much the same exact dynamic in this scene, right down to Draco’s realization that he was never going to be able to kill him. There’s not much else there, just an interesting connection that I wanted to share!

  • ISeeThestrals

    I could use a good reminder on why this chapter was called “The Lightning Struck Tower”.

    • Casey L.

      “The Tower” is a card in a tarot deck that represents “sudden, disruptive, and potentially destructive change.” In the chapter “The Seer Overheard,” Sybill Trelawney says something in front of Harry about constantly pulling that card, no matter how many times she drew or set out cards. The chapter name is most likely alluding back to that.

      • Dumbledore’s through & through

        It also fits because obviously they are at the tower, and Dumbledore is hit by a green light, so there’s some similarity to lightning (from a muggle’s perspective it would probably have looked like a lightning struck tower from the distance). Also, the tower as something high and impressive could be a symbol for Dumbledore as a very important, wise and strong character (who is also very tall by coincidence). It fits him to die on a tower. So the tower hit by the lightning is actually Dumbledore hit by Avada Kedavra.

        • Casey L.

          And also, a figure actually does fall from the tower. There’s a lot of reasons the chapter title is fitting, isn’t there?

        • HowAmIGoingToTranslateThis

          wonderful username!

          and I always picture the scene with Trelawney when she says “Calamity. Disaster. Coming nearer all the time…” with a distinct dun-dun-DUN!

      • PigPuff

        This reminds me that Trewlany made another accurate prediction with the taro cards (right?) she isn’t a complete fraud lol!

      • VoiceofDobby

        it was also called the lightning struck tower because they were on a tower and i imagine the spell would look something like lightning.

    • Kat

      Our app special feature has a huge discussion about this!

      • MoodyHorcrux

        I need to get this app….

      • ISeeThestrals

        awesome, thanks :)

  • MoodyHorcrux

    I need to say, that I know a lot of people don’t like Snape, and it was talked about a lot in this chapter, but come on. HOW would Snape have been able to tell Harry in book 5, that he understood the secret message about Padfoot. I think Snape went about it exactly the right way. Umbridge was going mad and wanted information now. Snape had to act as if he had no clue what Harry was talking about, in order for Umbridge to stop questioning the odd sentence. Snape are Harry aren’t friends, and it isn’t as if Snape would wink or give some kind of signal to let Harry know he understood. You can’t hold that against Snape as a person. He listened to Harry, and warned the Order. If he didn’t warn the order… that would be something entirely different, and I would completely understand people being angry with Snape then. I would be too!

    • SnapesManyButtons

      I agree. I think on first read we are supposed to feel Harry’s frustration and anger at Snape just walking out the door. But later we learn that Snape did in fact contact Sirius to ensure he was okay, alerted the Order when Harry didn’t return from the forest and then went into the forest himself to search for Harry. He even asked for Sirius to stay behind, which would have saved his life if he’d listened. It would have been beyond stupid if he’d said, “Padfoot’s in trouble? Don’t worry Harry, I’ll take care of it!” He was a spy, he’s trained not to give anything away and then go do what has to be done. I am interested in seeing what the scenario would be in which Snape somehow conveys to Harry that he understands the message in a way that Umbridge would not see.

    • ISeeThestrals

      I think some frustration with that scene might come from not hearing this from Snape himself. It was Dumbledore that told Harry what Snape had done afterwards, and Snape being Snape of course wasn’t going to come up to Harry later and tell him he got the message. And by this point, Harry’s opinion on Snape wasn’t going to change. It’s much easier to blame the guy you’ve always hated as opposed to stopping for a moment and realizing said guy might have done something decent. But keeping Snape as that dark character also keeps us readers thinking the worst of him. And it just gets worse with this chapter, lol.

      • MoodyHorcrux

        Yes, and as readers we are learning about events and go through this world in the eyes of Harry. So it’s hard when Harry is bias and blind to certain things. It’s suppose to be a shocker at the time (his last hope being Snape and Snape acting as if he had registered nothing) because it is to Harry, so it is to us. but after learning what was really happening this whole time, how could you as a reader still be mad? It all had to happen like this for a reason, the grand plan. And we are just as blind as Harry is on the first read.

        • ISeeThestrals

          The mark of a strong character shows when the readers really feel something toward him/her whether it’s love or hate. Snape is definitely in that category.
          I was just thinking perhaps another reason for the frustration with Snape is that we want to see that he’s really on the side of good. I don’t believe we’ve ever witnessed any acts of good (leastwise knowingly) from him until we hit his memories in the final book. Up til then, we’ve just been told that this dark man is doing positive things and is on our side. In that particular situation with Harry being trapped with Umbridge, we needed Snape to be the hero and save Harry, and we felt like he didn’t due to his personality. Then here we are again in this chapter with Snape being the only recognizable figure in sight that could be of help, and he appears to betray us by killing Dumbledore. I recall in those two moments, I was really urging Snape to be a certain hero type that didn’t fit his personality.

          • MoodyHorcrux

            I remember feeling the exact same way. I desperately wanted Snapes help in these moments, and he betrays Harry and us over and over again in the books. I suppose the difference is that a lot of fans never forgave him for the agony he caused them while he was playing the double agent. Even though I’ve always been a Snape fan, I would also get frustrated with how he was acting. He has one of the best Character story plots I’ll ever have the privilege of experiencing, and everything he did in the past, made sense to me once all the puzzle pieces were put together in book 7.

    • VoiceofDobby

      I still hate snape, but this was never an issue for me. I understood he couldn’t acknowledge Harry’s message, but before The Prince’s Tale, i assumed it was for some self serving reason. If he had acknowledged the message, Umbridge would have realized something was up and possibly tortured/fired him. In my mind, Snape wouldn’t like that. Now, i think he was aware of the fact that he needed to stay out of this, so he could stay at hogwarts, which i suppose is the same reason as my earlier point, but this would be for less selfish reasons. He needed to stay there so dumbledore’s various plans could be carried out.

  • Casey L.

    I recently heard an interesting take on Snape listening to the latest episode of Mugglenet Academia, and that’s that if we were really paying attention, we would have known which side he was on 22 pages into this book, because his sitting room at Spinner’s End is described as being “completely covered in books.” Their explanation was that the “good guys” are described as having and using books, while the “bad guys” aren’t to the extent that it’s almost a white hat/black hat situation. I can’t say I ever caught that, and at this point, I thought Snape had to be a bad guy the first time I read Half-Blood Prince, too, but I thought I’d throw it out there, since the hosts talked about different theories about the characters at the time.

    • ISeeThestrals

      Interesting. That point on the bad guys not reading reminded me of that moment in the “Chamber of Secrets” movie where Draco says to Goyle (who is actually Harry under the polyjuice potion) “I didn’t know you could read” after Goyle/Harry tells him he’d been off in the library when Draco asked where he was. I don’t recall if this was in the book or just the movie. Anyways, interesting thing to pick up on.

    • SnapesManyButtons

      That seems a little obscure, but knowing the way Rowling writes, I wouldn’t be surprised if there were lots of that type of thing in the books. She once said something like she never expected the books to be widely popular but that they would be popular with the type of readers who like to search deep in the books for what they can find.

      • Casey L.

        They didn’t seem to think it was intentional on J.K. Rowling’s part. They said she grew up in a house with a lot of books and may have subconsciously associated them with good or at least decent people.
        I should also say that in most of the examples listed on the episode – the Gaunt shack, Malfoy Manor and the main part of 12 Grimmauld Place (except for a wizarding genealogy book) – there probably were books, but we don’t see them. J.K. Rowling writes there are definitely books in places like Sirius’ bedroom at 12 Grimmauld place, the Burrow, the Lovegood house and most of the teachers’ offices we see . . . except for Umbridge’s.
        They also noted that the “good” side is constantly shown writing letters to each other and leaves written reports, and the “bad” side almost never does – they usually leave oral reports.

  • SnapesManyButtons

    On why Dumbledore kept asking for Snape. It occurred to me on this reading that when they got back from the cave and Dumbledore saw the Dark Mark over Hogwarts, he must have worried that, in his weakened state, he might be killed by someone other than Snape. The Mark had to mean Death Eaters were on the grounds somehow and if he were killed by anyone else it would have ruined his well laid plans. He needed Snape to kill him by agreement so it wouldn’t trigger a change in ownership of the Elder Wand and thus Dumbledore would die undefeated as the Wand’s last Master. He also needed Snape to kill him so that he would be more trusted by Voldemort and be chosen as Headmaster of Hogwarts where he would do what he could to protect the students.

    Looking at it that way, I don’t think he expected Snape to heal him at all. I think the Dark Mark overhead told him that this was it, and it would be no use being healed. It was more important that his death come off as planned and for that he needed Snape.

    • ISeeThestrals

      Interesting point on the ownership of the Elder wand. I had not thought that Dumbledore might be thinking of this, but he would have to expect that he would be disarmed. But killing another wizard is another form of disarming. While reading I had hoped Dumbledore was asking for Snape so he could heal him, but if not that, so he could explain where they’d been and perhaps make a change in the plans. I feels impossible to deny now that Dumbledore was calling for Snape so the plan stayed on track, though I don’t like to think of Dumbledore calling for him so he could kill him as it can almost come across as suicidal. But he was suffering from a curse in his hand and the potion, and we have to believe there was no magical cure for that situation.

      • SnapesManyButtons

        I don’t think Dumbledore expected to be disarmed, because he said himself he never thought Death Eaters could get into Hogwarts. I think he planned to be in complete control of when and how Snape killed him, but it didn’t work out that way. It’s not really suicide, because he was dying anyway. He was just so dedicated to the Greater Good that he was even willing to orchestrate his own death so that it served the Greater Good. Rather than just wasting away from the curse he could use his death to make sure Voldemort never got Mastery of the Elder Wand and making sure that there would be a Headmaster who would do what they could to protect the students after Voldemort took over the school. For both these goals he needed Snape to kill him. At least he was as willing to use his own life as part of the plan as he was to use the lives of others.

        • ISeeThestrals

          I know it wasn’t really a suicidal thought, which is why I said it can almost come across as such. Or perhaps the proper way to say this is that it’s a sad thought/conclusion for any one to have to come to. Though there’s so much death in the books, I think one can still see the great difficulty of facing it. Anytime some character has to lay down their life for a plan to work is pretty cruel. But it would have been worse if Dumbledore hadn’t already been withering away from that curse. If he had died as a man still in good health.

          • SnapesManyButtons

            I know. I wonder sometimes if he would have been willing to have Snape kill him if he hadn’t already been dying. I think he would do it if he believed that his death was more important to the cause than his further use as a leader. I’m actually kind of hesitant to start the last book, so much death and so many feels…

          • MoodyHorcrux

            Didn’t the plan start to accumulate when Dumbledore had come back from killing the ring Horcrux and Snape told Dumbledore he had maybe a year, before it killed him because it wasn’t curable? I always got the impression that this was when Dumbledore thought it up, and it was finalized when they learned of Voldimort’s plan for Draco. I wonder how it would have ended if Snape wasn’t put in the situation that made him make the Unbreakable Vow..

          • ISeeThestrals

            I can still see Dumbledore having Snape kill him even if he wasn’t already dying and even if he hadn’t made that Unbreakable vow. On another post, there was a discussion on the need for the wise/mentor character to die in order for the hero to continue his journey alone. If Dumbledore wasn’t cursed or if Snape didn’t make the vow, there would have to be a completely different plan on what to do with Dumbledore and the situation of Draco if he was going to live. It’s kind of tough to think what such a plan could be. I was saying on the other post, if Dumbledore had lived, Harry would be relying on him heavily to complete his mission. But with the case of a cursed hand, one would think all he’d had to do was chop it off before it spread. But I guess things aren’t that simple in the wizarding world.

    • SocksAreImportant

      Because Dumbledore asked for Snape before he saw the Dark Mark, I believe that Dumbledore knew he needed Snape to kill him that day. I think Dumbledore knew he was going to die as they were leaving the cave. It seemed to me that the plan was to have Snape kill Dumbledore while they were alone. The arrival of the Dark Mark and the death eaters meant finding Snape had become that more crucial.

      • PigPuff

        I honestly thought Dumbledore was seeking out Snape for an antidote, but this is an interesting theory.

    • Dumbledore’s through & through

      I completely agree. He was worried Snape wouldn’t be there to kill him and this would ruin his plans, not only concerning the ownership of the Wand but also concerning the role Snape was to play: Dumbledore needed him to be alive, Voldemort’s number one, clear of any suspicion, and in a position to help Harry, Ron and Hermione with the hunt for horcruxes. If he hadn’t killed Dumbledore, Snape would have been in danger to die from the Unbreakable Vow and his position in the ranks of the Death Eaters could have been questioned easier. Last but not least, Dumbledore cared for Malfoy and all other students a lot, and was frightend that the longer Death Eaters were searching the castle for him, the more students were going to get harmed or killed. He wanted to die from Snape’s hands as quickly as possible make sure his plan would work and everyone was as safe as possible.

  • ISeeThestrals

    Honestly, it had bugged me to see Harry frozen in place like that and forced to watch this whole scenario play out without being able to help. I recall feeling the need to urge Harry to break against that spell so he could attack, even though that would most likely cause chaos, lol. I just disliked the way they were positioned here. We seemed to have come to a standstill with Dumbledore and Harry listening to Draco talk, so I suppose I wanted some motion in this scene. Part of it was wanted them to reach the battle taking place below and just wanting to move past Draco standing in their way. But imagine if Harry had made it down the tower without having to retreat back to Dumbledore’s side and stay hidden. Or imagine had Harry not had his invisibility cloak to hide him. How much more would Draco had been affected by the need to kill Dumbledore if he had known Harry was watching?

    • VoiceofDobby

      Unlike fan fiction would suggest, i truly think that Draco and Harry despise each other, no matter how deep you go. I think Draco would not have managed to kill Dumbledore for the same reasons as in the chapter, but he probably would have gotten delayed taunting Harry. However, if Harry was free, he probably would of attacked Draco, and depending on whether or not this occurred after Draco disarmed Dumbledore, Harry could have become the owner of the Elder Wand a lot quicker.

      • ISeeThestrals

        I’d imagine Harry might be slightly wary of attacking Draco after almost killing him with sectumsempra. Or perhaps he’d resort to his favorite expelliarus on him. But Harry might hold back a bit being in the presence of Dumbledore. I do think Draco would use some time taunting Harry a bit, but maybe not as much as he usually does considering how anxious he is about what he believes he’s about to do to the headmaster.

  • DoraNympha

    Great show again, everyone, the open-the-Dumbledore was killer (pun sorry). Also I have wanted to say this for ages but Rosie you sound exactly like Bonnie Wright, I don’t know if anyone’s ever said this here before, I still have a hard time not picturing her on the show when you talk, I’m still not entirely sure it’s not Bonnie incognito haha.

    Anyway, about Dumbledore’s epic fall: maybe just because of Cedric’s movie death but I guess you could make someone fall a few feet backwards with a Killing Curse if you blast it at them hard enough. However, I think the fall was more for us readers, precisely because of the reactions you mentioned, the site and all. We needed something more than just Dumbledore crumpling in an unmoving heap on the floor, we needed to witness him die and die in a way that he’s DEFINITELY not alive. By this time he had been dying for a year because of the Horcrux curse, he had just drunk some weird potion that’s made him uncharacteristically weak, he’s just been hit with a Killing Curse while not having a wand in either hand or else hidden in his beard somewhere that we know of, AND if this wasn’t enough, he went and fell about a gazillion feet from the top of the highest tower you can find at Hogwarts.

    This is Jo eliminating all doubt: Dumbledore’s definitely, irrevocably, undeniably dead.

    Ouch.

    • HowAmIGoingToTranslateThis

      If you phrase it that way, Dumbledore must have had a lot of hit points to sustain all that damage. 😉
      Dumbledore’s death is the first that Harry gets all the rituals and opportunities to go through the stages of grief that would be recommended. There was no funeral for Cedric and Sirius, no space and time to say goodbye. That’s why Harry deems it important for the students to get the chance to pay their respects to their headmaster.

      And after Jo makes it so clear that Dumbledore has died, he is the one who makes the biggest reappearance in the next book. Can’t do without him.

  • DoraNympha

    About what’s love and obsession: Jo has stated in a tweet recently “Your Patronus only changes if it’s eternal love, unchanging – part of you forever.” So while I’m also not a Snape fan by far, we’ll just have to give it to him on that score, what he felt for Lily had always been real, genuine love. Sheer dumb obsession or obsessive love would not have changed his Patronus, no matter how unhealthily into it he would have gone. He really did love Lily, like for real, with eternal, unchanging, part-of-him-forever kind of love. So hey, we can still criticize the guy for literally 99% of the things he’s ever done and said, but this can’t really be one of them. Weirdly, it was love, for real.
    Also, sheer obsession wouldn’t have taken anyone through all the things Snape did, I don’t think anyone could find the strength and fuel in just obsession, and that’s where Voldemort was wrong about Snape too. He didn’t expect Snape to love Lily like this so he didn’t count on it causing flaws in his plans for world domiantion… Let’s not be Voldemort, Snape really loved Lily, his Patronus kind of being proof for that! (Not to say it wasn’t unhealthy for him but I’ll leave that meta to others who’ll be more sympathetic to Snape than I.) That’s also why it’s not unhealthy but heartclenchingly amazing when Tonks’ Patronus changes (for those ppl out there who accuse Tonks’s love being obsessive, uh, nope) or don’t even get me started on George’s Patronus being gone forever after Fred died. Like, George didn’t just become a heap of depression for the rest of his weirdly wizardly prolongued life, no, he had a gazillion supportive friends and family, he was super successful in his career, he married, had kids, so he did have happy, presumably awesome days in his life okay, YET his Patronus was gone, forever, for real. So yeah even though I really can’t stand Snape despite him being one of the most interesting characters, he did LOVE love Lily.

    • MoodyHorcrux

      For anyone to question that Snape might not have really loved Lily is shocking to me. (Sorry Kat – I think you were the one who mentioned briefly your thoughts on that topic in this podcast). I understand that through-out the series he is built up and made, in our eyes (because our eyes are Harry’s) an evil character from the start. Yes, he does some horribly petty, cruel things to young children that is an obvious reflection of his spite, and awful experiences he had at school as a child. I think the only person he EVER loved was Lily, and that was taken from him by the bullies he so rightfully despised. I personally grew up being bullied as well, as I’m sure many have, and it does something to you that you cannot reverse. Depending on the person, you can be completely destroyed by it and be hateful and always take out your past pain on others, or you overcome (but are oddly competitive in proving yourself and showing people they were wrong).
      Lily meant the world to Snape, but being placed into Slytherin, slowly losing her, and all the torment he had to undertake in his time at school, had nurtured his darker sides and made him a very angry and hateful kid. Where else did he have to turn, but to the dark arts in this very impressionable time in his life, where i’m sure he enjoyed learning and planning different ways to get Potter back for all the pain he had caused him. There wasn’t really an authoritative person in Snapes life at that time, who was trying to help him, or show him the light so to speak.

      Even though Harry Potter is our hero character and the one we follow through the story, he was sadly put in the middle of Snape’s resentment for his father James, and the love he always had for Lily, which made Snape the ‘evil’ character right away in the eyes of young Harry Potter, and in our eyes.
      I’ve always thought there was more then met the eye though, during my first read of the series. His character was always so intriguing to me – and I was always dying to know more about him. Why he acted like he did specifically to Harry and his friends. So I need to ask this question: after we learned the whole backstory, why do people still hate him? Why hasn’t he been somehow redeemed in your eyes?

      • MartinMiggs

        This is all true but he still is an awful person. Harry is a special case because of how Severus feels about James but why is he so cruel to Neville? He is a terrible teacher he gives just bare bone instructions, doesn’t help the students and openly mocks them in class (if they’re not Slytherins).

        • SnapesManyButtons

          Terrible people are still capable of loving someone. Believing he loved Lily doesn’t equate to believing he was a good person.

          • MartinMiggs

            Agreed but that’s not what I was disputing. MoodyHorcrux asked why there are some that hate Snape and the part of the answer is because he is an awful person

        • MoodyHorcrux

          It’s his horrible bias. His need to feel better than you, be more knowledgeable, he thought they were all stupid children. Weak. He tried to ignore the fact that he was ever bullied or was laughed at and constantly, brutally taunted. He is a damaged person from his past, and fell in love with the dark arts. And the most important thing is he never got his revenge. That ate away at him – and then put the death of Lily on top of that. Yes he’s a horrible teacher, who would put someone that damaged as a teacher of children. (he was a very skilled wizard and potions master) but that doesn’t mean you’re good at teaching what you know. I don’t believe he is a terrible person, but I don’t believe he is one of the GOOD people either. There isn’t just two types of people.

          • MartinMiggs

            No he is definitely a mean/terrible person. It doesn’t matter that he was bullied it doesn’t change the fact that he is a jerk.

          • MoodyHorcrux

            I just can’t help but feel like he would have turned out to be a completely different person if he wasn’t bullied so much, and stayed closer to Lily as a friend. If James was a different person.. Snape would have turned out to be a different person then he ended up becoming.

          • DoraNympha

            What house would he have been sorted into if not Slytherin, do you think? What if he had ended up in Ravenclaw? He was pretty smart and creative. Was it the ‘not Gryffindor’ thing that created such a divide between Snape and Lily or was it that he was in Slytherin (and thus got influenced by the bad crowd)?

          • MoodyHorcrux

            You bring up good points that I agree with and I don’t think it’s Snape-bashing at all. I don’t think all of his behavior is excusable. I’m not trying to excuse it, I was only explaining the reason behind his manor, and sympathizing with his story. I can’t help it.. I have a soft spot for him. I always have a soft spot for characters like this. (I also have a soft spot for Draco – when I first read the chapter where he’s crying in the bathroom, my heart broke open and I felt so sorry for him, I wanted to give him a hug, and I also felt excited at the same time that this side of his character was being revealed to us and Harry)
            I’ve said quite a lot here that I DO think it’s ridiculous that Snape takes out his pain on children. It pleases him to inflict pain on the weak, and amuses him when he uses his authority in that way. He’s definitely the type of person who was bullied, and then became the bully. And he’s never had someone whos loved him, and tried to soften him up a bit.
            As far as getting payback – I think yes over the years he did get revenge but by that point he was already so bitter, it didn’t change anything very much. He was already who he was.
            I don’t feel like he would have ever been sorted into another house. But if so, yes MAYBE Ravenclaw, if any other house. I believe it was because Lily was in Gryffindor and he was in Slytherin which created their slow and painful separation. They tried to stay friends, but the pressures of stereotypes between the houses, and the groups of friends they had made, really influenced them and made them unable to stay friends any longer, which I find really sad….

          • DoraNympha

            Yeah it is really sad, and it bugs me so much, the ‘what ifs’ of Snape’s sorting. But, this had to happen this way for the story……… :/ (I used to actually go to a grammar school where there was this Gryffindor vs Slytherin-like divide between drama students and English (as a foreign language) students and I had to keep my dating a drama student a secret for over a year because of the weird pressure and cliques of it all and my sister’s hating of the drama kids so much omg BUT we survived, me and my boyfriend, still together, unscathed by Basilisks or Death Eaters, miraculously. I’m too Ravenclaw to conform to this kind of nonsense but I understand that it can’t have been easy for Snape and Lily to keep up their friendship, even if the Death Eater business hadn’t been present… :/ )

            I think I know a tiny part of what you have for Draco and Snape, when you’re more unwilling to be mad at characters because you have what I call “fave-goggles” on: two of my absolute favourite characters are Fred and George and they also have their moments when it ALMOST crosses the line between harmless teasing and hurting someone, but I still feel like they never meant to be hurtful and truly mean, yes not even when they were booing at newly sorted Slytherins, albeit as a Ravenclaw I of course don’t think it’s their best moment! 😀 But I still feel like even the worst things they did are incomparable to an average day in Snape’s life, and I will fight to the death with anyone who says Fred and George are bullies because, well, trust me, I know bullies very well, too too well, and the twins are NOT bullies, else I wouldn’t remotely love them as much as I do! 😀

            Anyway, back to Snape: okay, so his behaviour wasn’t excusable, right, but let’s just imagine for a second that he chose to drop the unnecessary cruelty. Not that he suddenly became a Lockhart type lovey-dovey person, just imagining Snape not lashing out bitterly on people for smiling like ten times before breakfast. Would he still have been SO mistrusted by Harry and the Order, if he had occasionally showed some kindness?

          • DoraNympha

            Oh but I think he did get his revenge, didn’t he? James died at age 21 as a direct result of him ratting out the prophecy, Lupin is compelled to resign after Snape tells everyone he’s a werewolf at breakfast, Sirius dies as a consequence of Snape not giving a signal to Harry that he understood his code speech, Harry hadn’t even done anything but he was already retaliated basically every Potions lesson for umm existing? He got his revenge on Voldemort by working against him, and, well, he got his revenge on all the Marauders even back when they were at school, since it wasn’t just James and Sirius’ relentless bullying of Snape, it was Snape cursing them right back all the time as well. And he joined the Death Eaters, who lost the Marauders plenty of friends and colleagues in those short years before James and Lily’s death.

            Sorry for the following truth time but Snape is an immature person who’s holding a childhood grudge just like Sirius, who is immature in this as well truth be told, but Snape goes on to take it out on children in a sort of ‘if I weren’t happy, I’ll make sure you aren’t either’ way. I was also bullied every day of my school life, I’m still damaged by it in ways I won’t ever be cured of but it’s basic intelligence not to sink to the level of revenge or continue the bully cycle by bullying others randomly. I knew this even when I was like 10 so I’d expect a 30-something teacher to see the logic in this… Snape was a horrible person, not just rude or unpleasant but actually harmful to those around him, especially those most vulnerable. The fact that he had this strong love for Lily and that he chose to change allegiance to the light side doesn’t redeem 99% of the things he’s ever said or done. I don’t hate Snape but objectively, he’s never redeemed of his damaging personality. There was a point, a purpose to him acting as if he’s not all that good and that he’s dubious and dark, that’s okay, but there was absolutely no point whatsoever in terrorizing children. He could have just chosen not to, but he didn’t. That was for his own pleasure. Nobody told him to do it, that was all on him. And it’s like it’d be bad enough if it was only his bullying effect stressing out people like Neville or Hermionem but his personality and the way he acts had direct tragic consequences on occasion, like the Ministry debacle.

            Snape is probably one of the most interesting, many-layered characters in HP, don’t get me wrong. But I have experienced a lot of what Snape went through in his childhood, with the stressful family environment, the social isolation, the bullying, having no one to turn to, but I NEVER ever thought to become violent in turn. Granted, I’m a Ravenclaw, he’s a Slytherin, it’s only logical that we’d react differently, me thnking my way’s right and him thinking his way is right, sure. But it all comes down to this: Snape’s actions were explainable by his tragic past, yes, but not excusable. Everyone has a sad backstory, still doesn’t excuse harmdoing. And I feel like Snape fans should feel free to wholeheartedly love this character and everything, if that’s what they find interesting, it’s great, go for it, of course, why not? :) – but from what I’ve seen, a lot of them try to excuse his actions, which would be wrong. I’ve even had someone tell me Flitwick and McGonagall were bullies while simultaneously defending Snape – umm if Flitwick and McGonagall are bullies then what worrd does the English language have for Snape? :/ So I’m all for Snape-love but within reason, I guess is what I’m trying to say? Snape having had this strong love for Lily does not make me go back and re-read Snape scenes with changed feelings for him at all. (Soooo yeah, sorry a bout the Snape bashing but I feel like canon is pretty much already Snape-bashing…?)

            Having said all this (again sorry I don’t mean to spread hate about others’ fav characters sorry sorry sorry), I do agree with you, it’s pointless to sort people into good and bad, of course. With Snape I always think of it as scales: one side has a hundred smaller bad things and the other has two giant weights for Lily love and helping the fight against Voldemort so the scales are on equal level.

          • MartinMiggs

            Great points re: Snape getting revenge but he did have a horrible upbringing and grew up to be a terrible person. This doesn’t excuse his actions but you can understand why he is the way he is. You may have been bullied and turned out alright but that doesn’t necessarily mean that everyone else will.

          • DoraNympha

            Exactly, I agree, it’s totally understandable, and Snape had many, many reasons to become a Death Eater, that I don’t deny. However, look at Harry, Sirius, Pettigrew, Percy, Andromeda, Regulus, Petunia and Lily: all had their own influences and upbringing that should have shaped them irrevocably but they chose to go after their own minds. Snape did this too, albeit a little late, but despite his personal influences, he knew, he was aware by the time he was 15 that calling someone a Mudblood is wrong and even before Hogwarts he told Lily it didn’t matter if she was Muggle-born, he wasn’t ignorant of the fact that your birth doesn’t actually mean anything in terms of magical capability or the quality of your personality. Yet, he chose to join the Death Eaters, despite this awareness. And, as an intelligent, brilliantly clever adult, he must have been aware that a kid that’s not even been raised by his own parents can’t be punished for what his parents did, yet he chose to behave the way he did, when he could have chosen not to. I think that’s my unredeemable problem with Snape; one of the biggest points of Harry Potter is that you can always make up your own mind and you always have your individual freedom “to make a choice between what is right and what is easy”, yet Snape freely decided to support Voldemort after Hogwarts, knowingly, aware that their anti-Muggle-born ideology was baseless and harmful. He couldn’t NOT have known that killing people in the name of pure-bloodism is wrong, regardless of his backstory. Harry had just as bad a childhood, abused by Muggles, and he didn’t jump at the chance to be pals with pure-blood praising Draco Malfoy. Sirius had all the worst influences yet he never thought to give in to his family’s pressures for a second. It’s all in the choice, which I believe everyone has. Yes, you have influences and pressures and danger and having to protect others or the greater good which make choices hard, but like Voldemort could just not have chosen to become such a prat or act according to the Prophecy, everyone could have always just chosen not to hurt others. If that makes sense? Snape working for the Order doesn’t redeem him because he caused such damage to people he personally had beef with even while helping the Order’s side, like Lupin and Sirius, and the students, like that was arguably child abuse – you’d think he’d be smart enough not to do that, PRECISELY given his own backstory. :/ I mean I feel sorta sad for him, yeah, but not in a loving sort of way, that’s all. :)

        • Gryffindora The Explorer

          I have always thought that Snape treats Neville so horribly because he knows that Neville could’ve been the chosen one. Snape knew that there were two sets of parents that could’ve fit the prophecy, and the Longbottoms were the other set. Snape treats Neville so terribly because he blames Neville in some weird way for not being the child that Voldemort went after. So by extension he can blame Neville for Lily’s death.

    • SnapesManyButtons

      Yes! Snape and Lily are shown in canon as having been Best Friends since they were 9 or 10 years old. She was his childhood best friend, with whom he shared all the things best friends share. She wasn’t some crush who didn’t like him back and who he never got over. Even Lily said she and Snape were Best Friends but when she ends the friendship there is no evidence that Snape pursued her after his attempt to apologize. But do you just stop caring for and loving someone you were so close to growing up? (Sirius and Lupin didn’t.) Even if Snape was “in love” with Lily, that doesn’t negate the closeness they shared as best friends. You don’t stop loving someone because they don’t feel the same – if it really is love. I think it devalues male/female relationships when you reduce them to “he just wanted to sleep with her and couldn’t.” As if there could be nothing else between them.

      Why isn’t it obsessive that Sirius and Lupin still loved James all those years later and tried to help Harry because he was James’ son? Are they obsessed with James because they didn’t “get over” him after all that time and “move on” with their lives? They loved James and Lily and that love was a part of them too. Sirius even allowed himself to be sent to Azkaban out of his guilt for suggesting Peter for secret keeper. Not so different from Snape giving over his life to Dumbledore as a spy.

      Loving Lily doesn’t mean Snape wasn’t bitter, petty and mean, but even Rowling says he loved and showed loyalty to that love and laid down his life for it. She also said that Lily may have grown to love him romantically if he hadn’t been so into dark magic. I don’t see Snape being obsessed with Lily depicted anywhere in the books. Harry calls it love and Rowling calls it love. That’s good enough for me.

      • DoraNympha

        I so agree with everything!

        People hardly ever seem to consider the fact that what Snape and Lily first had was a best friend bond, a mutual platonic kind of love they did have for each other. Friendly love is shown to be such a strong force in the books, yet everyone just assumes Snape was in some pitiable unrequited love with Lily and it’s like that aspect downplays Snape’s love for Lily as “obsession”, which it wasn’t. He did grow to love her romantically as well, yes, but mostly they had been best friends since before Hogwarts. And isn’t the argument in front of the Fat Lady’s portrait said to be the last time Snape and Lily ever spoke? And, like you said, has anyone ever complained that Sirius and Lupin should have just moved on by this time, like “get over it, James snuffed it ages ago, why are you still sad, jeez pathetic, there are plenty of other people in the world to make friends with”? [looks into camera as if on The Office]

        • MartinMiggs

          We never see Lily reciprocating these kinds of feelings. She has married someone else, given birth to a child. It’s time to move on Snape maybe download Tinder.

        • Hufflepug

          I agree with you on everything and I love your reference to The Office haha. People are so shocked about his romantic love for her that they usually recall his romantic love before his platonic love, both of which were very strong. I think a lot of the regret also comes from losing her when he called her a Mudblood.

      • MartinMiggs

        Yes Lily and Snape had a meaningful bond but Lily no longer wants to have a relationship with him yet Snape can never get over it. Yes its normal for you not to get over a crush for a period of time but this is waaaaaaaay past that. Sure the After all this time Always line is cute and sounds really nice but when you really think about it he’s saying he will always love the woman who turned him down. This is borderline creepy.
        To your comparison of Snape to Sirius/Lupin I have to disagree completely. They do move on with their lives. Lupin gets married and has a child. They are involved in the Order. James was their best friend who died at and when they were young this would affect them deeply but they continue as best as they can with their lives.

        • DoraNympha

          Well I guess we’ll never know unless Jo says some more things about this but here’s this: Dumbledore never allowed himself to grow attached to/love anyone after he’d burnt himself so much with Grindelwald (and he knew him for a few months only, whereas Snape had been Lily’s friend since before Hogwarts) – is that creepy obsessed as well and he should have just moved on and found a boyfriend, like it’s been a hundred and twenty years, Albus, get a grip? I’m just exaggerating of course, but, you get the idea… ?

        • SnapesManyButtons

          Lily wasn’t a crush, he doesn’t always love the woman who turned him down, he always loves the girl who was the first friend he ever had, who was the best friend he ever had, who he had been not just friends, but best friends with from the age of 9. He is never shown approaching her romantically in any way. She didn’t turn down anything, she ended a longtime friendship. She was to him what James was to Sirius and Lupin, a best friend.

          Of the three, only Lupin played no part in Lily and James’ deaths. He’s the only one who moves on, though he still loves James and Lily. Sirius talked them into using Wormtail as secret keeper and allows himself to be put into Azkaban, never even claimed to be innocent, because of his guilt over James and Lily’s death. He gets out only to try and kill the only person who can clear him of the murders that he’s in prison for because that person betrayed his friends. Apparently, he could have escaped sooner, he just never wanted to before. Not even for Harry. He thought he deserved the penance because of James. He could have gone to Lupin, told him about Peter and Lupin could have called Ron in, asked to see Scabbers and turned him in to the Wizard Cops. Quick and easy. But Sirius wanted to be the one to kill him, and that led to him being on the run instead of having a happy home with Harry. Because he loved James after all that time and always would. (BTW, Snape was also involved in the Order.)

          But they were still friends, James never turned him down, right? What if he had? Imagine that James had ended his friendship with Sirius after he sent Snape into the Shrieking Shack in their 5th year. So they’re not friends anymore and Sirius “gets over” James and goes on with his life. Do all the years they spent as friends now mean nothing and he has no feelings for James, no love left? Now imagine several years later the Potters make Wormtail their Secret Keeper and somehow Sirius finds out that Wormtail is a Death Eater and will betray them. He hasn’t seen them in years but Sirius feels responsible because if he’d stayed friends with James they would have picked him instead of Wormtail. Does he not do anything because they’re not friends anymore? Just watch it happen? Or does he do everything in his power to help them, even if it risks his own life? If he failed and they died, would he just get over it and go on with his life, or would he devote himself to bringing down the people who killed them? And if so, for how long? At what point does he stop caring and move on? James didn’t want a relationship with him, they’re not friends, so he shouldn’t love him anymore and move on, right? I don’t think so, I think the years they were friends, the things they shared, would stay with Sirius all his life and he would always love James even if they weren’t friends anymore. Just like Snape loves Lily because of their friendship.

          Sorry so long, but this is a peeve of mine. I know I won’t change the minds of those who can’t see my point, but maybe some other readers will see it and understand.

          • MartinMiggs

            Your patronus doesn’t change because you’re really great friends with someone. You don’t camp outside a girl’s dormitory until she agrees to speak to you because you’re best buddies. Snape wants a more serious relationship, a romantic one but Lily either doesn’t see how he feels, ignores it, or Snape just never said or did anything to make that clear.
            Sirius didn’t know where Scabbers/Pettigrew were until he saw the Daily Prophet with the Weasleys on the cover so he couldn’t just clear his name and live happily ever after.
            Your last point is pure speculation. Dumbledore was also considered for Secret Keeper and without James’ best friend in the picture he could’ve easily been picked. The problem with Snape is years later he still has feelings for Lily and always will. Sirius on the other hand builds friendships and relationships with others and is working for the Order to help protect wizard kind, to protect Harry and because hes a genuine good person.

          • SnapesManyButtons

            As I said, I know I can’t change a mind that is made up, but had to respond with my thoughts. I guess your point is that he can’t love her for the friendship they had if he falls “in love” with her? And if he was “in love” with her it should only last if she returns his feelings? Rowling said on Twitter: “Your Patronus only changes if it’s eternal love, unchanging – part of you forever.” His love for her is part of him, not based on her returning his feelings. I still don’t see what’s bad about always loving someone who was your first and best friend, even if you did fall in love with them at some point. And personally, if I hurt my best buddy that badly, yes, I would wait outside their door so I could apologize as soon as I could, even if I knew it wouldn’t mend the friendship.

            Of course my last part was speculation, I was putting Sirius into a situation similar to the one Snape was in. It was a hypothetical “what would Sirius do if James had ended their friendship?” Would he always have feelings for James? Would he care enough to help if he found out James and his family were in danger? Would he do anything to make amends if they somehow died in a way for which he felt responsible? I think the answer would be yes. He would do for James what Snape did for Lily.

            Why is it a problem that Snape always has feelings for Lily? Dumbledore seems surprised to hear this, so nobody even knows it, he’s living his life as a spy and teacher. He can’t get close to people not because of his love for Lily, but because he’s been used or abused by pretty much everyone in his life and is a damaged, bitter man. And again, like Sirius, Snape is also protecting Harry and working for the Order, and in a more direct way than Sirius ever could. His spying was instrumental in saving the Wizarding World, Sirius was unable to do much besides offer his home as headquarters.

            At this point I will agree to disagree. I don’t expect you to agree with my points if you didn’t from my first post, but I appreciate your input and the chance to examine my own points more.

    • HowAmIGoingToTranslateThis

      I didn’t remember that George’s patronus was really gone in canon, thanks for pointing that out!

      • DoraNympha

        Yeah don’t even get me started on this, it’ll end in tears…

        But I guess it means that a Patronus can change for other kinds of love than romantic, like George’s flat out disappearing or Harry’s being his dad’s. It doesn’t have to be falling in love.

    • Paige Crawley

      I think that saying a patronus only changes because of love of a person is simplification. There are different types of love. I think Lily, to snape, represented the idea that someone could like/love him. I feel like at some point we are told he didn’t have a great childhood before hogwarts, so i think he was searching unconsciously for approval, and i think that little bit of self respect may have immediately endeared her to him. we have also discussed the idea that snape was in love with the idea of lily- a lily he had created in his head. towards the end of their friendship, snape and lily began to drift apart because of their different views. After this, i imagine that snape could have created a “perfect lily” inside his head, that would be the same as the real life person, except she still accepted snape for who he was. Maybe snape just loved her.
      I have one more possible theory; I think that snape may just love lily because it was her, indirectly, who gave him reason to turn to the side of good, where he could possibly find redemption and self respect. I guess i just really like the idea of snape having self esteem issues.
      and finally, props for using the phrase “weirdly wizardly prolonged life”

      • DoraNympha

        Yeah there are different types of love, and I still think it can change for family love or even friendship if the person is a kind of soulmate or close to one, you know. Like, I always thought it was a happy coincidence that Lupin’s was a wolf and Sirius’ a dog because they’re great friends. I don’t know what made James stag-like in the inner workings of his soul but maybe his Patronus conformed to Lily’s and without her he would have had a different Patronus as well? Who knows. But I definitely don’t think a Patronus can change for either a crush or an obsession with someone. So it must follow from this that Snape did love Lily.

        I think what he felt was a mingled love of the kind you feel for your one and only best friend and also with his romantic love for her, which he never ever revealed to Lily. I think Jo did confirm that Lily never knew about Snape’s love love for her? (I can’t remember so I can’t say for sure.) And you may be right, especially once they grew apart and didn’t see each other for some time, Snape must have been more in love with the Lily he remembers from before, the super nice girl that was his best friend in the world, as opposed to real Lily with James as her husband and a mother to a child etc. And this image of her might have grown even further after her death. However I don’t think it was ever too far-fetched, like Snape probably idealized her a bit, though I don’t really know if I think it was that much.

  • Voldemort’s Lost Nose

    Great episode as usual, guys! This chapter is the only time I’ve cried to a Harry Potter book. One tear fell on the page where Dumbledore dies. In my copy of Half-Blood Prince you can still see exactly where the tear has fallen, because the ink is very slightly smudged. For many years, I couldn’t read the end of the book. When rereading the series, I simply stopped reading when they were about to go to the cave, and I just continued in Deathly Hallows (I don’t do that anymore, but I was quite young at the time and just couldn’t cope with it). I never cried at the Deaths of Sirius, Moody or even Dobby – maybe it’s because the death of Dumbledore was such a game-changer: Dumbledore’s death meant the end of safety.

    • ISeeThestrals

      Nice user name by the way. Sirius was the only death I cried for. I had become really attached to him. As for Dumbledore, I just felt shock, but didn’t shed the tears. As far as I recall, I think Dumbledore’s funeral seemed to go by quickly. I’ll see if it’s so when we get to that chapter.

  • Minerva’s tartan biscuit tin

    I am fascinated by Jo’s way with names, so I looked up Amycus and Alecto and had a little OGM.
    Alecto is named after one of the Eriyes, also known as Furies, and Amycus seems to have been named after a son of Poseidon, known as boxer king. Both are minor characters in greek mythlogy that are notorious for starting fights.
    When reading the books I always remembered Aecto as very angry, so I didnt find it surprisng, that the Fury Alecto is often associated with unceasing anger. I the Aeneis Alecto is Setting the heart of Turnus on fire and causes his blood to “boil with the passion of war”. Seeing as Alecto Carrow will become the Professor for Muggle Studies that will try to encourage hate for muggles in the students I found that connection very intersting.
    Amycus will become the Professor for DADA where he will teach his students aggressive Magic (namely the Criciatus Curse). In mythology the giant king of Bithynia would greet foreigners entering his territory by challenging them to a match of boxing that mostly didn’t end before his opponent was dead.
    Though I didn’t find a connection in mythology, I had to smile a little to myself when I remembered that they would eventually be overpowered in the books by the Professor named after a godess. Minerva, the godess of wisdom and strategy in Roman mythology, ended the terrror of the siblings form greek mythology.
    Roman wins over Greece and Jo is once more a genius!

    • HowAmIGoingToTranslateThis

      Thank you for looking this up and sharing it!

  • Paige Crawley

    regarding the discussion on dumbledore’s knowledge of what was happening: I have two opinions. the first is that dumbledore did not know exactly what night he would be killed, but he was expecting it to be soon and therefore was not entirely surprised by the events that followed. My second thought contradicts this completely, but i like it. The other half of my brain thinks that dumbledore knew he had to die that night in order to set off the chain of events that had to follow in order for voldemort to be defeated. For example, i think it would have been much more suspicious if dumbledore had been in perfect physical condition and things had still happened the way things did, since Draco is obviously not as skilled. I also do not remember if dumbledore’s hand is still cursed at †his point, but if so, its possible he knew that the curse, or perhaps even the potion would kill him naturally if they waited to long, and in order for the elder wand to switch allegiances.

    Also, i had a thought when Rosie was talking about Dumbledore ‘goading’ Draco. I have always viewed this moment as dumbeldore empathizing with draco (though maybe being slightly manipulative) and treating him just as he would otherwise so Draco understands that dumbledore knows that he is only acting as he must and that he is not a bad person at heart. I think that this is really all Draco wants at the moment, and therefore the wand lowering and the slight retreat.

    small point on the bit about dumbledore being blasted out of the tower: I do remember there being discussions on forums, or maybe an old episode, about a theory that maybe the strength or the emotional power behind a spell can cause this to occur. another instance of this occurring is in the prisoner of azkaban when Harry (?) casts expelliarmus on snape and he is thrown backwards. At this point, Harry was suffering from an overload of emotions and confusion. Snape could have easily had a lot of emotional force behind his spell as well. I like this theory because we know how inherently emotional magic is, and i think that supports it.

    There was also a moment of discussion about why Harry is terrified when dumbeldore starts pleading with snape. There has always been many a conversation about the extent of dumbledore’s control over the events in the books, and i think Harry had picked up on this too. therefore, when dumbledore needs someone else and appears to be so out of control (though we now know what is not true) Harry knows that things have gone so badly that there is no hope left, and he is justly scared.

    also, i knew dumbledore had to die, the same as hedwig, because of practicality and narrative purposes. for example, hedwig had to die because Harry wouldn’t have been able to look after her when they were hunting horcruxes. Dumbledore would make everything to easy.

    • Dumbledore’s through & through

      I think he didn’t know that it was exactly this night util he saw the dark mark, but he knew he had little time left because Draco had to make his final attempt before the end of the schoolyear. I think he was hoping to get at least enough time to show Harry how to destroy the locket, since it was the only information that would really have helped him to carry on on his own.

      • Paige Crawley

        I think that makes sense. I do however think that dumbledore tends to overestimate Harry, and i don’t think he realized that Harry would have trouble figuring out how to destroy things on his own

  • The Half Blood Princess

    When I was little, my mother gave me the second HP book and said, read it, it’s good. I got through the first page and, like Ashley, decided it was stupid for similar reasons. Many years later, I read the series because me and my sister disagreed on who would win in a fight between Voldermort and Darth Vader, and I decided that I couldn’t form an opinion unless if I read the series with Voldy in them.

    I’m a Snape fan too. I didn’t really talk about it on my episode because the subject never really came up.

    I feel like the ring is valuable as well, it’s a symbol of ultimate blood purity. Of course, Voldy is a half blood. Interesting.

    If DD had been the one to say accio horcrux, and he was a certain distance from Harry, would harry be summoned to him as he is the only horcrux in the cave?

    I’ve never seen Titanic.

    Later, there’s a lot of emphasis on Draco saying that he didn’t tell Snape what he was going to do, I think that was to tell rereads that DD didn’t know what Draco was doing.

    I hated how DD and Draco argue about Snape’s loyalties. Couldn’t either of them say, “Sure, think Snape’s on your side, your loss.”

    Even though I was, the entire series, insisting that Snape was evil, I was shocked that Snape would kill DD.

    Snape was very much the reason I kept reading after book 1. Even after book 1 I thought that he was evil, but as it seemed like it would be revealed that he was in fact a DE, I began to think he might be on the side of good after all.Draco hasn’t just been using Hermione’s cleverness, he’s been using Fred and George’s as well. He uses the d

    When bad things happen to minor characters, it somehow feels almost as bad, if not worse, than it would if it were a character I felt passionate about. For one thing, if a major character dies, you are far more likely to get spoiled. For another thing, every time you see a minor character that dies, gets imperiused, gets ravaged by a werewolf, etc. before this happens, you think about that happening. DD is major enough that when you see him, you don’t think, ‘oh he dies,’ because that is not the most major thing about him in the way it can become with more minor characters,

    Draco hasn’t just been using Hermione’s cleverness, he’s been using Fred and George’s as well. He uses the darkness power.

    The fact that Snape killed DD was a big surprise, but the fact that DD dies at the end of book 6 was one of the few spoilers that actually for spoiled for me, I remember being terrified when he was drinking the potion.

  • Hufflepuff & Blo Yur Hows Dwn

    Loooooooong time follower of Alohomora here… =) Just wanted to comment on the discussion this week about Dumbledore freezing Harry in the tower. While I agree with the hosts that he uses Harry’s freezing as an opportunity to get Draco to talk and let Harry know what was really going on all this year, I always interpreted the reason why Dumby Petrificus Totalis’s Harry differently. I always thought that Dumbledore froze Harry because he knew that Harry’s “hero thing” would kick in and he’d try to defend the weakened Dumbledore and start going into warrior mode. D knew that would change all the events he needed to have happen – including his own death – if H succeeded. As a matter of fact, this is one of my BIGGEST problems with things they changed in the movie that I could never explain why they changed it. Leaving Harry just wandering around down below while the whole scene takes place was so WRONG! The Harry Hero we know in the books would NEVER have sat down below and watched that without trying to stop it.

    • SocksAreImportant

      I agree a lot with how the movie portrayed this scene incorrectly. I do believe that Dumbledore froze Harry to prevent him from interfering. It would be interesting to think about how the scene would have unfolded if Dumbledore didn’t freeze Harry.

      • ISeeThestrals

        I get the feeling that maybe they thought people would be confused if they shot the scene like that in the book. Perhaps the explanation is in my “Page to Screen” book, lol. I had wondered what would happen if he didn’t freeze Harry also. Harry’s obeyed Dumbledore so far up to this point, so whose to say he wouldn’t hold back on attacking when Dumbledore gave him the order not to do anything. The thing is to pull up the number of times Harry waited until he or someone close to him was physically attacked first before putting up a defense. I’d be interested in the reaction of Draco if he knew Harry was there the whole time.

        • SocksAreImportant

          Yeah it just makes more sense to have the scene with Harry below rather than invisible under the cloak. In the book you can get written information about Harry’s feelings during that moment and you can’t get that in the movie. Almost all the movie differences are entirely logistically.

          I am immensely interested in what it would have been like if Draco knew Harry was there. Do you think he ever found out that he was there? This adds such more to this scene. I love it.

          • ISeeThestrals

            I don’t think Draco ever found out unless somehow the topic of that scene was brought up between Harry and Draco whenever they met up again. I feel like Draco might be angrier if he saw Harry there and might be even more afraid to kill Dumbledore considering how the wizarding world sees Harry as this savior. Surely Draco knows the number of times Harry has saved the day throughout his years, and if so, I can see him being even more scared at the idea of Harry preventing from doing his task and also afraid of what it would mean if Harry was the one to stop him. Not to mention, Harry’s a clear witness to what Draco’s about to do, and I think that might also create some anxiety in Draco as he pushed himself to go through with it, maybe even more-so than when the Death Eaters were present, in a way of proving that Harry’s not the Wizarding world’s savior as he couldn’t stop Dumbledore’s death.

      • Hufflepuff & Blo Yur Hows Dwn

        Yes! You should add that piece to the Podcast Question of the Week!!! =) How would it have turned out if the movie happened as it did with Harry just hiding below, but it didn’t conclude like the book and he want all Harry Bad@$$…

    • SnapesManyButtons

      Agreed! There’s no way Harry would have stood by while Draco held a wand on Dumbledore and certainly not if he thought Snape was about to kill him, Dumbledore had a split second to do something to protect Harry so he made him not only unable to interfere, but invisible under the cloak so he wouldn’t be found and captured or killed. I don’t see him as thinking, “I need to talk to Draco and this will enable Harry to hear our conversation,” in that split second. I think talking to Draco was to stall but also to gain information that Harry could use like how Draco got the Death Eaters in so they could close off that method of entry.

      • ISeeThestrals

        I think the tension would have increased all the more if Harry was able to pull his wand on Draco. And with Snape appearing, Snape might have had to hit Harry with some kind of spell first to keep him out of it and then kill Dumbledore.

    • ISeeThestrals

      First time reading this scene, I felt as frustrated as Harry with him being unable to do anything, even though I get why Dumbledore did it. I still find it frustrating, and I suppose it’s cause I want more motion in the scene and a bit less chatter even though the chatter is always interesting. In regards to the movie, Harry is made to trust that Dumbledore will handle the matter with Draco. He’s obeyed him so far up to this point. And when Snape shows up, Harry is left to trust that Snape will take care of the matter, being the more experienced wizard than himself. If anything the latter is striking because Harry does not like to willing trust Snape. They pass it off as Harry staying on alert with his wand raised case Draco does anything. I think there they wanted Harry to have the sense not to recklessly attack and instead stand below and wait. In contrast to the book, if Harry was going to charge and attack if Dumbledore hadn’t froze him, then it seems as if Harry has not learned enough restraint, which he does need to learn by now, lol. I despised the movie, but I did kind of like that Snape knew Harry was there to witness what he was about to do. As far as I recall in that scene, Snape’s eyes did drift down to Harry before he killed Dumbledore.

  • HowAmIGoingToTranslateThis

    Back in 2005 I worked in a library and a few days before HBP was released there was a girl who came in every day and asked if we already had it. We had to assure her that the minute we got our hands on it she must be notified so that she could come and pick it up. So for those few days the head librarian made sure that every single person working at the check-out knew about the girl and that she had first dibs on the book. On the release day someone picked up the copies at the bookstore, brought them over and had them equipped with all library badges and stuff, and then placed one copy at the checkout with a giant note with the girl’s name and user-ID on it.
    So we waited all day for her to turn up, excited to have such enthusiastic readers, and then she didn’t come. During my shift I got to place the other copies on the NEW!!!! – shelf and many readers came in and were like “oh, there’s the new Potter book, great!” and grabbed one. Our enthusiastic girl came in the next day and was so glad that we had kept our promise to keep a copy for her.
    The funny thing is, now I’m the one spending hours on rereading the Potter books and discussing things with you here and with everyone else who will listen. 10 years ago I was like “Oh yes, I want to read HBP, too, but I think I’ll wait until the German translation is out.” Remember, earlier that year Star Wars Episode III had been released and, being first and foremost a Star Wars Fan, I was still busy enjoying and complaining about the new movie. Months later when the translation was hitting the stores and finally everyone could go mad, what did I do? Read the original.

    I cried with Hagrid, every time, when he came into the hospital wing after carrying Dumbledore’s body into the castle, when he was with the heads of houses in Dumbledore’s office discussing whether the school should be closed, when he couldn’t see where he was going because of his tears after carrying Dumbledore to his grave. I cried with Ginny and Hermione. And I cried when Ron said “we’ll go with you wherever you’re going.”

    • RoseLumos

      You speak German? Now I truly understand your username. I listened to an episode of Mugglenet Academia about translations and they had a French and Portuguese speaker talk about the translations and how rough they can be. That must be a nightmare with all of the made-up words. I was just reading something about the anime Spirited Away and how there is so much meaning and significance with the character’s names in the original Japanese script, but almost all of it got lost in the English translation. I wish I could understand the beauty behind it, but I only know how to count to three in Japanese so I doubt I will ever fully understand it.

      • HowAmIGoingToTranslateThis

        Yes, I speak German, being born in Germany and growing up here makes it convenient. 😉 I’ve been learning English for 20 years, started reading the Potter books in English when I was 14 (GoF taught me lots of new words) and went on to reading Star Wars novels and later classics. Writing with everyone on Alohomora gave me more confidence in expressing my thoughts, and still there is a questionmark in my head the moment before I click on “Post”. Some things get lost in translation, some sentences sound weird and many words have multiple meanings.
        I understand how you are fascinated by the meanings of names in other languages, there is so much we don’t know yet and even more still to explore!

        For the German translation, I think they did a good job there, few names were changed, most significant is that they dropped the “o” from Hermione. The bug reference was lost when they changed “Skeeter” to “Kimmkorn”. And what bothers me as a Ravenclaw is that they could not come up with a good translation for “wit beyond measure” that rhymes with “Schatz” (treasure). The Sorting Hat’s songs are less masterful, too.

        • The Half Blood Princess

          i didn’t get the bug reference and I DO speak english.

          • thequeerweasleycousin

            Ok, now I feel safe to admit I still don’t get it. Can someone explain, please?

          • HowAmIGoingToTranslateThis

            Skeeter can be read as a variant of moscito.

            I only got it after I’ve read “The help”.

  • HowAmIGoingToTranslateThis

    As to knowing who would die before reading: I guessed it would be Dumbledore, because it was his time to go plot-wise as in many hero-journeys. Harry, Ron and Hermione were always protected by the “magical charm” that keeps the main character trio from dying. Like Luke, Leia and Han, they have to survive, because no one would read on. (Want a really mean tear-jerker? Try the Chewbacca comic, that was hardly bearable)

    • RoseLumos

      If one of the three of them dies in this new Star Wars movie, oh I will not be happy. Then again, based on the prequels I will probably not be happy about a lot of things…

      • HowAmIGoingToTranslateThis

        I have read enough Star Wars novels to be prepared for anything. Characters may die, they may experience further character development, re-live something they have done before, stuff will get blown up…
        As long as I get to see the movie with my friends, enjoying every minute or correcting continuity errors and demanding more diversity and calling dibs on the coolest spaceships and droids – I won’t be upset.

        As they say in Audiofictions: Live beyond the books. (or in this case, movies)

        • The Half Blood Princess

          Completely unrelated tol HP, but how do you feel about Disney’s reboot?

          • HowAmIGoingToTranslateThis

            Very calmly. That’s the advantage of having several favorite fandoms, if one is a little not as you’d want it to be, just spend more time in another. Rereading HP keeps me from being stressed out about Star Wars and whatever someone might do wrong with it.

    • The Half Blood Princess

      Hello, fellow STAR WARS fan.

  • RoseLumos

    It’s funny, but I also didn’t cry when Dumbledore dies. Like Harry, I think I was in too much shock. However, I didn’t cry for any of the other character’s either, although I remember the horrible pit in my stomach when I read that Fred, Lupin, and Tonks died. The only time I ever cried reading the series was after my favorite chapter in the series, “The Forest Again” (when Harry walks into the forest at the end of DH to die). It was so well written, and after spending so many years with Harry, I couldn’t help it. To this day, that chapter makes me the most emotional. A close second is Harry’s “cap lock” screaming chapter after Sirius dies.

    • The_Potter_Dude

      Did you cry when Dobby died?

      • RoseLumos

        No. I was really sad but i just didn’t cry. It takes a lot for me to cry though. I just became a volunteer for the Make-A-Wi

        • The_Potter_Dude

          Cool.

    • ISeeThestrals

      I didn’t cry for anyone’s death during Deathly Hallows, but I did tear up with the forest chapter, after Harry asked if it hurt to die.

      • RoseLumos

        Yeah, I think I lost it right about there. Also, when Harry apologized to Lupin for his death. I think that’s when it hit me that history repeated itself, and Teddy was now an orphan.

      • lifeanddragons

        the first death i honestly cried for was Sirius. I don’t get why not as many people feel bad for Sirius? When the whole world was giving Harry crap, he stood by him in his own way and Harry looked up to him and loved him, and they both cared for each other, and it breaks my heart that they never got to be very happy together as a family. Sirius was Harry’s closest thing to a guardian and he basically lost another parent that day at the ministry. I was sobbing uncontrollably when Lupin was holding on to Harry and the him realising that Sirius had never kept him waiting…
        And no I never cried for dumbledore, although that might also be because I already knew. I wasn’t able to get the book till a week after it released…
        Hedwig I was just in shock. It seemed like such a meaningless death ( I know symbolises death of innocence and all that, but hedddwiigggg :'(…samee with dobby
        I legit cried when Harry visited his parents’ graves and also in The Forest Again. The words just make your insides turn into this puddle of feels…I’m sure those chapter discussions will be amazing.

    • Hufflepug

      I cried buckets the first time I read DH but The Forest Again is also what did it for me. I vividly remember sitting at the kitchen table, my best friend who hadn’t gotten to that part yet reading her book right next to me, and my mom talking on the phone in the background. I couldn’t help it and I just started sobbing and wailing. My mom actually had to tell the person she was talking to to hold on and ask if everything was alright. And I couldn’t say what had happened because I didn’t want to spoil my friend! I think with that chapter it’s not just Harry walking to his death that made me cry but also the fact that he FINALLY got to talk to his parents and he got some last words with Sirius and Lupin that pushed it over the edge. Oh lord.

      • HowAmIGoingToTranslateThis

        We had for some nonsense reasons just bought one copy of DH and had to take turns reading it. After a few chapters each of us had to wait until the other person had caught up, so that we could finish the book at roughly the same time. I remember sitting in the dark at night and reading on and on because stopping was impossible until there was a particularly scary part- the next day I pushed the book into my partners hands and told him to start reading immediately because I was scared to read ahead on my own.

        • Hufflepug

          Wow, it takes a lot of patience to share that book with another person! I bet it was tough to avoid lots of spoilers that way. I think my friend and her whole family read the book that way too, and there were four of them!

          • HowAmIGoingToTranslateThis

            We were both supposed to read other things as well during that time, so somehow it worked out. As a family of book lovers we liked to read books to each other, but with DH we preferred to read it for ourselves.
            Sharing one book between four people is a challenge!

      • RoseLumos

        Something similar happened to me. I got the book at midnight and spent the whole night reading. I got to that chapter and was in tears (probably around 10 am) when my mom walked in and asked how the book was AT THAT EXACT MOMENT! I cried out that Harry died, but then I of course turned the page and realized it wasn’t quite over yet.

  • RoseLumos

    Someone posted something similar below, but I want to know what everyone’s feeling on Snape where after this chapter? Where you on the “Snape is good” or “Snape is bad” side? I ask because I remember this being one of the hugest debates as Deathly Hallows came out. In fact, when I went to the midnight release party at my local Boarders Books (RIP Borders) they were giving out stickers and having debates.

    Personally, for the first three days after I read HBP, I was sure Snape was an evil Death Eater. However, after processing everything, I came to think that Snape was a double/triple spy. My reasoning is that JKR never, ever made things easy – she always challenged her readers and made them fight for their answers. It seemed too easy for Snape to just be a Death Eater. I knew there had to be more to it, even if I didn’t understand why.

    • The_Potter_Dude

      I dislike Snape because if Lilly and her family was not targeted, Snape would of never go to the Order. (good side)

    • ISeeThestrals

      You have practically the same reaction I had to Snape. I was thinking he was evil and cursed Dumbledore’s foolishness for trusting Snape. Then after a several days of processing it, I thought there might be something more going on here even though I didn’t know what, but my reasoning wasn’t due to JKR’s writing. I was thinking that is such a huge error on Dumbledore’s part to make in trusting Snape. So I thought on Dumbledore’s insistence that Snape is on the good side and that’s what made me backtrack a bit and wait to hear the reason why Snape did it. So I guess I kind of put Snape in a near neutral position.

    • SocksAreImportant

      Snape is my favorite character in the series because of his complexity. This doesn’t mean that I like him as a person or agree with things that he has done. This simply means that he was and is the most interesting character in the series for me. Reading the books, you quickly get the idea that Harry is good and Voldemort is evil. You know or at least hope to know that at the end good will defeat evil. Snape on the other hand was made to be in the middle. This made me re read every Snape infilled chapter with extra scrutiny, examining every detail to unlock his mystery.

      On first finish of this chpater I was on the “Snape is bad” side. On the second or third or fourth re read, I started questioning it with Dumbledore’s “Severus…please….”. Reading DH, I was on the “Snape is good” train, but I still would not have been surprised if he turned out to be evil.

    • Dumbledore’s through & through

      I never for one second thought Snape might not be evil after I read this scene, and I was really really confused when I for the first time heard someone saying they always thought he was on the good side. I was in such a shock after reading Dumbledore’s death that I completely took Harry’s perspective from hereon. And also I found it very plausible that Dumbledore made such a mayor error when trusting Snape, because my confidence in him was shocked after book 5.

    • The Half Blood Princess

      From the moment he had made his first appearance in SS to very close to the end of DH, I was convinced that Snape was working for Voldy. Even after, in the first book, Quirrell was revealed to be the one who had been trying to kill Harry, and Snape turned out to have been protecting him. But some unconscious part of me must have been convinced that he was good after all, because after he killed DD I was shocked.

    • SnapesManyButtons

      I knew it was too easy to just have him look bad and then be bad, so I suspected that he would turn out to be working on the good side. But so many times I just couldn’t imagine how. By the end of this book I was thinking, wait, how is he going to turn out to be good now! I couldn’t see how he’d come back from this one. But I wanted to believe he would. Jo did such a good job of keeping us wondering about him!

    • DoraNympha

      I’m usually all for theories and not making up my mind until we have got all the books out but at the time I was like this is it, this is the end of the Snape good/bad debate, I totally fell for it at the time so when Snape gave the memory to Harry in the Shrieking Shack I was floored. By that time I had completely forgotten that there “used to be” this doubt surrounding him so when we see his story and stuff I was reading with my mouth hanging open. At this point in HBP, I fell for it, completely.

  • RoseLumos

    Sorry for posting so much, but I don’t have much to brag about in life. My one claim to fame is that I was at the “Harry, Carrie, and Grawp(sp?)” book reading in 2006 and it was absolutely amazing. Not only did Jo read from part of “The Secret Riddle” chapter (where Dumbledore visits young Tom Riddle in the orphanage) but Stephen King was there, and he is also awesome. It was one of the nights (out of the two) when she officially announced that Dumbledore is dead and wasn’t coming back. However, if I remember correctly, she did’t announce that he was gay until after Hallows was released. I am pretty sure it was after, since it is in Hallows where we learn more about Grindelwald. However, I think Kat’s points still hold up – despite what you want to say about Dumbledore as a manipulator, I believe that when you look past the surface he was truly a great man trying to solve a great problem. I respect that even at the end, he knew that the “m-word” belittled and offended people, and there is no excuse for that.

    • ISeeThestrals

      Dumbledore would need a good mix of things in his character for him to be able to stand out the way he does in literature. If he was flawless, we wouldn’t be talking about him as much, and I doubt he’d be as fascinating.

      • RoseLumos

        I couldn’t say it better myself. I feel like in a lot of children’s and YA lit there are always a good person and a bad person. And that good person is usually flawlessly perfect while the bad person is evil for not particular reason. Dumbledore is a human character, in that he is not perfect. I know there is some Dumbledore haters, but I still love him. Think about how terrible the world would have been if he never existed.

        • ISeeThestrals

          Or how much more difficult it would have been if he never existed. For some reason when you mentioned that, I thought what the books would have been like had Snape been the headmaster the whole time, lol. I don’t think the series would have been as easy to read.

          • RoseLumos

            Oh interesting thought. But what is up with Grindlewald and Voldemort? Would there be anyone fighting them? Somehow I image the world without Dumbledore looking a lot like the Ministry chapter in Hallows. Like would Snape allow Muggle-borns into his school? I feel like he would, considering he knew how powerful Lily was, but I see Snape being an easily influenced person without Dumbledore. Without him, I bet Snape would do anything Voldemort said without much thought.

          • ISeeThestrals

            Yeah I imagine it would be grim like the Ministry in Hallows. And Snape would be darker without Dumbledore there. Maybe Grindlewald wouldn’t have come into the picture. Now I imagine a scenario of Dumbledore dying much earlier in the series, and perhaps Snape taking over as headmaster a couple of books back. If that was a case, I wonder if Dumbledore would have somehow put Snape up to taking his place on informing Harry on what he needed to know about defeating Voldemort. Now that would be extremely tricky for Snape to play without tipping certain people off. Not to mention, gaining Harry’s trust on his own, lol.

          • The Half Blood Princess

            Would DD still be there, and just not be headmaster? If not, who would be the ultimate force of good and leader of the order of the phoenix? I feel like it would be an entirely different series.

          • ISeeThestrals

            That’s a good point about the Order, but the Order is forced to move on after Dumbledore’s death here. And in that second scenario of Snape as headmaster, it’s with Dumbledore dead. I’m sure there’s fanfiction of it somewhere, lol. And it would be a different series had that happened. Hogwarts wouldn’t seem as much fun if Snape were in charge much earlier.

  • The_Potter_Dude

    If a 20 year old wizard goes back to Hogwarts to finish their Newts could they enter into the Triwizard Cup.

    • Hufflepug

      I don’t see why not! As long as they’re a Hogwarts student over the age of 17 then it should be ok :)

      • The_Potter_Dude

        Was there someone that was over 20 in Harry’s Triwizard Tournament?

        • Hufflepug

          Not that I know of. I think Cedric, Fleur, and Viktor were all 17 or 18. But if there was a special case where a student was 20 I feel like the rules wouldn’t be against it because they just said you had to be 17 or older.

          • HowAmIGoingToTranslateThis

            back in the days when there was no age limit in the Triwizard Tournament I’m sure Hogwarts had it’s Marcus Flints, who just stayed a bit longer than average, and so they could have been 19 or even 20 in their last year at school.

          • VoiceofDobby

            I don’t think a 20 year old would ever be allowed in the Triwizard Tournament, either because they would have an unfair advantage, or possibly, especially with the example of Marcus Flint, since you are still in school, your magic is probably rather weak, and the goblet of fire might not pick you anyways.

    • DoraNympha

      And what if someone’s Muggle-born so they know all about Muggles but they don’t have time in their schedule for Muggle Studies: could they sit the exam without having taken the classes? (If, say, a job requires an OWL or NEWT at the subject.)

      • Hufflepug

        It would be really funny if that happened and the student kept getting things wrong because everyone seems to have such poor knowledge about Muggles.
        Examiner: What device do Muggles use to talk to each other over a long distance?
        Student: A telephone.
        Examiner: No, I’m sorry, the answer was “fellytone.”

      • The_Potter_Dude

        I don’t think so.

  • Hufflepug

    Wow, 130 comments and it’s only Sunday?! That’s gotta be a record :)

    • Eileen_Prince/Jones

      I was thinking the same thing!

  • Eileen_Prince/Jones

    I always liked to think what would have happened had draco accepted protection and they successfully got away before the rest of the death eaters got to the top of the tower. Harry would’ve never gotten the chance to win the elder wand from Draco; Narcissa wouldn’t have been there in the end to lie about Harry being dead…would be a way different ending! Just fun to think about how one little thing could’ve changed a lot.

  • Dumbledores death. Why it’s done that way? Pure and simple…it’s dramatic! One way to make you despise Snape even more. It was almost like it was written for a movie.

    • lifeanddragons

      Yeah! I don’t know if anyone else has felt this, but the the books seem to get progressively more cinematic and more visual every time. Especially books 6 and 7. It’s like she wrote everything while having the cinematography in mind and I get it books have to describe visuals, but something in the way she does it changes in comparison to the earlier books. Just to point out a few that really stuck out for me, this scene, with dd falling over the tower of course, in book 7, the entire section in godrics hollow, and also the part where ron leaves, the way their argument is interspersed with the rain. Made for the movies if you ask me.

  • The only death I cried for was Dobby.
    I love all the characters except Sirius…I had no time to warm to him.

    • The Half Blood Princess

      The worst death for me was Fred. :(

      • HowAmIGoingToTranslateThis

        For me it was the worst death we got to watch. The worst at all was Tonks, and of course Lupin. I get why they were there to fight, but dying so soon after becoming parents is just unbearable. Maybe I would not have chucked the book against the wall after reading about their deaths, but out of the window, if DH had come out two years earlier when my daughter was a newborn. I would have been like “Jo, you’re also a mother, how can you do this to me?!?!!!1oneeleven”

  • SpinnersEnd

    I think there is a big difference in the types of intelligence Hermione and Dumbledore possess. I think of it as the difference between heart and head. Hermione is very ‘head focuses’, she learns through read and logical deduction. Dumbledore is much more “heart focused”. He feels for the right answer, instead of studying to find it. His brand of magic is much more intuitive than Hermione’s.

    I agree with the hosts when they say that Hermione will never be able to use the type of magic Dumbledore does, she must have something solid and concrete to study. Her magic is very clean cut. Dumbledore doesn’t need neat lines and the magic he can delve into is “fuzzier”.

    • Eileen_Prince/Jones

      That was my boom played on the show and i feel like it came across wrong. I wasn’t saying that hermione would rise to the level of dumbledore, just that she was similar in the fact that she knew way more than her peers because she was constantly reading and researching and taking the initiative to make herself more knowledgeable. I think dumbledore did the same thing, taking his learning into his own hands and actively bettering his knowledge, whether by association or just research in theory or practical sense. Does that make sense? I was really bummed the way the hosts reacted to it :-(

      • Hufflepug

        I agree with your audioboom! The question was how Dumbledore learned so much, and I think at the very base of it he was already a very smart person who had an interest in that kind of magic and spent a lot of time reading about it to understand it better. Then of course he would start understanding it intuitively, especially after using books to know about that sort of magic and after going out to experience it.

        • Eileen_Prince/Jones

          Thanks! I was stoked to hear i got played on the episode and then crestfallen by the way everyone reacted, :-P…i guess i just explained it wrong, i was just trying to make sure it was under a minute.

          • Hufflepug

            Oh yeah I know that feeling and I’m sure everyone else here does too! Sometimes it’s so hard to word something that it doesn’t come out right and everyone thinks you mean something else.

      • RoseLumos

        I totally understood what you were saying also. Look around at all the people you graduated high school with (assuming you are that old). I have some friends going off to get their graduate degrees, and a few going to medical and law school. I have others who never finished college. Just because everyone goes to the same school doesn’t mean they learn or use their education the same. Dumbledore, like Hermione, clearly has a thirst for knowledge that will never be quenched. The difference between the two is the reason they want to continue learning – Hermione is genuinely curious about the magical world and wants to know everything about it, while Dumbledore wanted to learn more for his own gain, to be powerful wizard. Luckily (or unluckily?) he realized that too much knowledge mixed with too much power was something almost unstable in his hands.

      • HowAmIGoingToTranslateThis

        It does make sense, and I understood your audioboom in the way you explained it here. Both Hermione and Dumbledore find enormous pleasure in learning and they cannot not learn. Back in his time as a student I believe the school librarian gave up on trying to get Dumbledore out of the library at night after a few weeks, because he’d be begging every time “just one more chapter, please! I’ve just had a very enlightening moment!” 😉

  • SpinnersEnd

    I really hope there’s a fan fic out there titled Fifty Shades of Snape.

    • The Half Blood Princess

      As long as it doesn’t have anything in common with the original except name.

      • HowAmIGoingToTranslateThis

        I wish I had not googled it. Don’t google it. Don’t!

        • MoodyHorcrux

          Googled it lol..

          • SpinnersEnd

            I’m so sorry….

      • SpinnersEnd

        It would be better written that the original.

  • Guest host, Ashley: “Love at first paragraph,” lol. That was pretty much my own thing, too. I was super intrigued. By time the first chapter was over, I was sold on buying/ reading all the books.

  • SnapesManyButtons

    Wait, Wormtail wasn’t evil? He was just weak? Why can’t he be both? Let’s take a look at what he did:

    1) He was passing information to Voldemort long before he betrayed the Potters.

    2) He willingly turned over one of his closest friends, with his wife and baby, to be killed. By design he couldn’t give Voldemort the address of the Fideleus Charmed house unwillingly. It can’t be tortured out of you. He had to give it willingly. He wanted to do it.

    3) He proceeded to kill 12 muggles for no other reason than to save his own hide and frame Sirius, another close friend.

    4) He let Sirius rot in Azkaban for 12 years knowing he was innocent.

    5) When he escaped Sirius and Remus, he made the trip to Albania to bring back the Dark Lord, who clearly couldn’t do anything on his own and may have stayed there forever if nobody had come for him. He traveled all that way of his own volition because he was afraid of Sirius and Remus. He knew how ruthless and murderous Voldemort was the first time, he knew bringing him back would lead to more deaths and destruction but he did it anyway.

    6) He helped Voldemort regain a rudimentary body. Another thing he couldn’t have done without help, and which Wormtail did willingly.

    7) He kept Voldemort alive when he was in that rudimentary body, when clearly Voldemort wasn’t able to do it himself and Peter could have let him die.

    8) He took Bertha Jorkins to Voldemort where she was tortured for information and killed to make a Horcrux in Nagini. Wormtail did this just hoping to get in good with Voldemort with no regard for her life.

    9) He helped Barty Crouch Jr. capture Mad Eye Moody. Though this one could be seen as done under duress.

    10) He killed Cedric Diggory. Voldemort was there in his rudimentary body, so he may not have had much choice here, but he cast the unforgivable and it wouldn’t have worked if he didn’t have the intention to kill.

    11) He brewed the potion that gave Voldemort back his body. He performed the ritual that gave Voldemort back his body. He put Voldemort into the potion that gave Voldemort back his body. All steps Voldy clearly couldn’t have done for himself.

    He did all those things willingly, not because he was cornered or tortured, willingly. Often he had plenty of time to realize what he was doing and turn it around, but he never did. He had a choice, even if that choice was to die so others would live. Yes, he was weak, and a coward, but he also acted very deliberately to save himself at the expense of others not just once or twice, but over and over, and that, to me, is evil.

    • thequeerweasleycousin

      Yes, I agree. Wormtail is weak, and a coward, but he is also a really really evil person. He doesn’t care about anyone but himself, and is only looking for someone to protect him because he needs someone stronger than himself. Maybe you can even say he is a lot like Voldemort, only without the brains and the selfconfidence?

      I’m always confused when the “bad” characters in this book are so easily redeemed, this goes for Wormtail as for Draco and Snape.

      • MoodyHorcrux

        IIIIIIIII don’t know about thaaaat…. Wormtail and Umbridge are on a completely different level then Draco and Snape. Completely different. And I personally have never excused Umbridge or Wormtail for their horrible, disgusting behavior.

        I think Wormtail is evil … It’s a different type of evil from Voldemort or Bellatrix though. Wormtail is pathetic. No one was telling him to do most of the bullet points that SnapesManyButtons pointed out for us above, and when he WAS being ordered to do something terrible, yeah he was horrified of dying if he did not obey (all his life he clung on to the strongest ‘defender’, being a slave to them) but he would have done his own evils if he wasn’t being told to do the evils others wanted of him.

        • thequeerweasleycousin

          Your “IIIIIIIII don’t know about thaaaat….” gets me confused evertime I see it combined with your profile pic, because my brain tries to make Snape scream it in a silly hyped up vioce, and it doesn’t really work… ;D

          • MoodyHorcrux

            Hahahaha, that’s gold. xD

      • Hufflepug

        Wormtail was just barely redeemed, and he still died an evil man. One moment of hesitation doesn’t do much to redeem someone other than to say that they had a glimmer of fairness in them. I think he may have even regretted not killing Harry and Ron when his hand turned on him for it. Draco and Snape were redeemed somewhat when we learned more about the love they had in their lives, but one could argue that even they were not completely redeemed. If every bad character was painted as 100% evil for the entire series, then there would be no complex villains and a much flatter story. We do have some of those unredeemed villains in the series in Voldemort, Bellatrix, and Umbridge, but we need the others to balance it out so people can understand that there may be more behind a villain’s motivations and so people can think about these complex characters and debate back and forth about what constitutes good and evil. The same goes for the opposite, i.e. the characters who seem 100% good but then we learn about their dark side, such as Dumbledore and James.

    • The Half Blood Princess

      I agree that he has committed many terrible crimes, but the fact that he was fearing for his own life, in my opinion, means that he is not truly evil. Terrible, yes. A rotten excuse for a human being, yes. but true evil is Voldy, Bellatrix, and Umbridge. Again, not making excuses for Wormtail. But you can be a far more horrible person than he is.

      • HowAmIGoingToTranslateThis

        If you assume that to be truely evil one must be willing to harm others for the sake of harming them and no other reason, then by your definition Wormtail can’t be truely evil. But if you remember, Umbridge did bad things because she thought they were right, and nobody ever excuses her.

      • SnapesManyButtons

        I can see what you’re saying, but I think it makes a difference that his life was not in immediate danger when he did most of these things and even when it was, he didn’t have to take out a street full of muggles to get away from Sirius. I don’t think he feared for his life when he turned in the Potters, he just wanted to be on the winning side and get back at the Marauders. I don’t think he was fearing for his life when he ran into Bertha Jorkins and decided to take her to Voldemort in the hopes of improving his standing with him. I also think it’d be hard to be far more horrible than someone who personally killed 13 people and indirectly lead to the deaths of his best friends and all the death and destruction that Voldemort caused when he came back. He caused far more death than Umbridge and as much as I hate her, i think that makes him worse whether you want to call him evil or not.

        • The Half Blood Princess

          It all depends how you define evil. I would consider Voldy, Bellatrix, and Umbridge to be the evil characters in the series because if they were given the choice whether to hurt/kill an innocent person or not and it had no affect on anything or anyone except that person, then they would probably do it, and we’ve seen no evidence that Wormtail would. Although that raises the question of what matters more, actions or motive? I suppose that they “far more horrible” might be an understatement, but I’d say that they’re at least more horrible.

          • HowAmIGoingToTranslateThis

            I’ll use a scene from the PoA movie to explain how I think Wormtail can be characterized. When he picks up Lupin’s wand, he smiles at the trio and waves while he transforms into his animagus form. He is glad that he has found a way to escape and as soon as there is no more threat to his life, he is confident and kind of schadenfroh again. As long as there is an immediate threat, he’s afraid and backs away, begs for his life and goes into the coward-role. But as soon as he is no longer paid attention to, he will run to safety and do what he considers profitable for himself. That can include evil acts, lots of work, dangerous travelling, putting himself into the service of someone else and so on. And he’s doing this so perfectly that we still excuse him as being afraid and therefore not evil, because his cowardice stands out more than his evil acts. Wormtail was the one who killed 12 persons with one spell, a murder that made wizarding Britain afraid of Sirius for years, and then he lived with Ron and Harry in their dormitory for years, making them believe he was a loveable harmless pet and not a murderer, traitor and what else more. Evil enough.

          • thequeerweasleycousin

            That’s an interesting line of thought: Why do we have the tendency to excuse his evilness? I think you are right that he presents himself as weak and pitiful and that’s what makes one forget his evil acts. But I also wonder how much it has to do with the one little scene when he lets Harry escape from Malfoy Manor. I think it might be easier to “forgive” him because there he “proved” that something in him could still empathize, and for this reaction he then had to die. Although for me, just because he isn’t evil all the way down to the last corner of his soul and shows a maybe even not concious impulse of doubt or whatever it was, that does not change what he has done.

          • HowAmIGoingToTranslateThis

            We want Wormtail to still have a trace of Peter. Peter, the friend who was with James and Sirius and Remus during those wondrous years at Hogwarts when they were doing legendary things and going through adventures together, saving each others lives, doing what many of us have desired during growing up.

            If Wormtail still has a trace of Peter in himself, then we can still regard the marauders era as a golden age. If Peter is gone for good at the time Wormtail starts working for Voldemort, then how can we like him as part of the four friends?

            Also, characters are more interesting if they have many aspects that are sometimes contradictory. Think about Darth Vader, who reveals himself as the father of the rebellion’s two iconic figures, but is their greatest enemy. When he kills the emperor and saves Luke’s life, that’s when we really believe that he was once Anakin Skywalker, Jedi-Knight and friend of Obi-Wan Kenobi.

    • Eileen_Prince/Jones

      Idk, i have to agree with the half blood princess…i don’t like wormtail at all, but i don’t classify wormtail as evil. Whenever i think of him i think of coward…cowardice can make u capable of doing all those horrible things, but down right evil?
      Say wormtail lorded over a mostly deserted island with some sort of people to lord over. With no way to get off the island and also no way for any foreign thing to get to the island, wormtail would feel safe so He wouldn’t do evil things, he’d probably be a terrible leader, but not do anything evil.
      If voldy were replaced with wormtail, he would do evil things to the same people, just because thats the kind of person he is.
      Also, just look at their different childhoods. No one would have guessed (and they didn’t) that peter would grow up to be a traitor.
      But tom was definitely a troubled kid, even if most people couldn’t see it past his charms/manipulation.
      Kinda a weird example, but ya, in conclusion: evil is not a classification i would give wormtail.

      • Dumbledore’s through & through

        terrible leaders tend to be the ones who are also doing evil, cruel things. Wormtail is not like Voldemort in many ways, and you can’t compare one’s evilness to the other’s, but just because there is someone who represents the ultimate evil doesn’t mean everyone else can be excused by only being a coward. Wormtail did terrible evil things without any immediate threat, just because he wanted to side with the biggest bully on the playground (Sirius or Lupin phrase it like that in the Shrieking shack). He betrayed a friend and got his whole family killed. He doesn’t do it for the fun of it like Bella or Umbridge, but for power and protection. Different kind of evil, I’d agree so far, but evil none the less.

        • Eileen_Prince/Jones

          I’m not excusing him by any means, yea he had a choice and cowardice governed those choices. I agree that its a different kind of evil, just don’t know that I’d call him evil is all…maybe i guess it would be like giving him a compliment to call him evil, hes pathetic and despicable, evil is too good a word for him

  • caput-malfoynis

    talking about disarming people and winning their wand, seeing as that’s literally the only spell harry uses how many wands does harry own that he doesn’t even know about

    • Lisa

      Yup. Or we could ask why Draco isn’t the rightful owner of Harry’s wand since he disarmed him and subdued him on the train in HBP.

    • Hufflepug

      Ollivander never says that he is the rightful owner of Bellatrix’s wand either. It must depend on the wand. Maybe hawthorn and elder wands change dependency more than others. In DH we learn that Harry’s holly wand is particularly loyal to him.

  • DoraNympha

    I have a question about the Elder Wand how Dumbledore’s plans are confusing.

    So, remember in the movie, Gambon had this face when Draco disarmed him? As if he thought “… okay, that changes things.” or as if everything he knew about the Elder Wand just flashed through his mind while trying to keep his cool. That prompted me to think, well, yeah, Dumbledore is actually aware that you don’t have to kill to win the wand. He didn’t kill Grindelwald, he just defeated him in a duel, probably just disarmed him or took the wand away some other way. The point is, Dumbledore knows it’s not passed through murder but disarming.

    Of course he still had many reasons to have Snape be the one to kill him (less drawn-out, Draco’s soul won’t be damaged, Snape will be utterly trusted by Voldemort, etc.) but wand ownership was not one of them anymore. Dumbledore intended Harry to go after the Horcruxes, not the Hallows, his main intention with the wand was not to let Voldemort win it, not necessarily for Harry to have it, was it? Am I wrong about this? I’m confused now: did Dumbledore plan for Harry to get the wand, because I got the impression he wanted it to die with him. So when Draco disarmed him, what did Dumbledore think? Was he just like “alright, whatever, no one’s ever going to think Draco’s was the wand… except Harry” or did he try to win Draco over all the more, not out of his usual faith that he can convince people to be on the right side, but because he immediately realised just how much danger Draco will be if Voldemort realises he had disarmed Dumbledore and thus has the Elder Wand?

    • SocksAreImportant

      I love this because I had never before thought about the elder wand in Book 6. You’re right, Dumbledore must have realized who the wand belonged to when Draco disarmed him. I think it was more imperative to Dumbledore for the wand to wind up not in Voldemort’s hand then for it to wind up in Harry’s. I think the plan was to have Snape kill Dumbledore without disarming him. Because this was a plan, I think the elder wand loyalty would die with the owner. The fact that Draco gained ownership of it was simply “a flaw in the plan”. :)

    • Paige Crawley

      to answer your first point: i believe that dumbledore totally got disarmed on purpose, in order for the elder wand to switch allegiances, and that scene in the movie screwed with things, which i think is totally inexcusable. In the first few movies, not all of the books had been released/written yet, so some of the finer plot points naturally are missed. By the time the HBP movie came out, deathly hallows hd already been released, and they should have realized some of these things. Then again, it might just be gambon’s fault.

  • Dumbledore’s through & through

    OK, this is getting absolutly crazy! It’s only monday and already more comments than I can read… So, I have a question, and I think it hasn’t come up in the comments yet, sorry if I’m wrong:
    Before Dumbledore gets killed, he pleads to Snape, while only seconds earlier he is totally relaxed and chatting with the Deat Eaters. Harry is frightend like hell when he hears that. So my question is: Is Dumbledore 100% sure that Snape is on his side, or is he afraid he made a mistake in trusting him? Is he just acting? Is he afraid that Snape won’t do it although he is on his side because he doesn’t want to kill him? Why is he pleading?

    • DoraNympha

      Well, the more he’s pleading the more ruthless Snape seems in front of the Death Eaters, therefore they trust him all the more. Or, Snape was the only person present that he didn’t have to playact for? Maybe all this time he’d been even weaker and more desperate than he had seemed to Harry, then he put his cool demeanor on for the sake of the Death Eaters but then when Snape arrived he dropped all pretence. Maybe all this time he’d been dying to see Snape? (bad word choice….)

      OR, maybe yes, he wasn’t 1000% sure afterall that Snape was going to do as planned.

      That’s interesting, now that you’ve mentioned it. When is Dumbledore acting? When he’s talking to Harry, the Death Eaters or Snape? Which one is really how he’s feeling?

      • RoseLumos

        I THINK Dumbledore trusts Snape, but I wouldn’t be surprised that his “Severus… please…” was 99% “you have to do this” and 1% “I hope you are doing this for the right reason.” I think someone said either on the podcast or in the comments that Snape was neither Dumbledore’s nor Voldermort’s man, he was just Snape. He did what he had to do. But, I think, deep down under everything, his motivations are to stay by Dumbledore and defeat Voldemort because 1) Voldemort killed Lily and can’t be forgiven and 2) he promised to protect Harry, which means helping him in every way, which then leads back to point #1.

        It’s funny, Harry never realizes it, but he and Snape are fighting for the same reasons – revenge for killing Lily (and James, Sirius, and Cedric in Harry’s case). The only difference is that Harry can see the bigger picture and realizes that he needs to defeat Voldemort because of all the other innocent lives that are in danger. I don’t think Snape cares about anyone else except himself.

      • HowAmIGoingToTranslateThis

        I’m not sure if he is “acting” at all. I believe he shows different aspects that are all real for him, depending on what is important in the conversation. So either he is not acting at all, or all the time. Reassuring Draco that it’s not to late, reminding the Death Eaters that he is not scared of them, asking Snape to do as they have discussed… I think all these different moods are there and Dumbledore is compartmentalizing according to his audience.

      • MoodyHorcrux

        I agree. I don’t think Dumbledore was ever acting, and I think the different sides we see in this scene is just his way of trying to ignore his pain while trying to finally talk to Draco before the end, speaking to the Death Eaters as he would even with his strength and wand at hand ( because that’s just who he is), and once Snape comes I really do think he is begging – because of his pain, and for Snape to go through with it right then and there before anyone else had the chance, and it proved good placement because the Death Eaters were able to watch Snape “betray” Dumbledore and his trust wouldn’t be questioned ever again.

    • Hufflepug

      I think part of it also is just Harry’s perception. Harry sees Dumbledore in his weakest state which prompts it. I think Dumbledore fully trusts Snape. He could be expressing worry that it is not the right time or he could be experiencing a fleeting fear of death, even though he’s usually very calm about it.

      I love your username!!! When Harry says that it’s one of the most powerful moments in the series!

    • SnapesManyButtons

      This is one of those passages that is supposed to look one way on first reading but very different the subsequent times. Rowling doesn’t want us to know if Snape is good or bad here so we interpret Dumbledore’s pleading as “Don’t kill me,” the first time. Just as Harry does. But once we’ve read the whole series we can see that Dumbledore is, in fact, pleading to Snape to please go through with his promise to kill him. Snape had told him that he didn’t want to do it anymore, and remember that, for whatever reason, Dumbledore has told nobody that this is planned between them. Once Snape kills Dumbledore he will not only lose the only confidant he has but he will be hated and hunted by the few other people he has any relationship with. People he just sat next to at meals or Order meetings will now want to kill him on sight. Also remember that at the start of the book Snape mentions to Bellatrix about the others who “carry tales of my treachery” to the Dark Lord, so even among Death Eaters he is not safe. This is not a good thing for him, yet he has to do it for Dumbledore’s plan to defeat Voldemort to work. I think Dumbledore always trusted Snape completely, he just knew it would be exceedingly difficult for him to kill the only person who ever really trusted him and thus become a fugitive and a pariah to everyone else.

      • Dumbledore’s through & through

        I really like your comment a lot, you really naild the realtionship they have. I’m not sure if I’m reading this into it, but I just thought, maybe by pleading to him, Dumbledore makes it easier for Snape to kill him, reminding him that he really wants it and showing the pain and exhaustion his cursed hand and also the potion must cause him.

        • SnapesManyButtons

          Good point. Kind of the opposite of telling a dying person it’s okay for them to let go, he’s telling Snape it’s okay to let him go. I like that.

    • Slyvenpuffdor

      I think Dumbledore is playing the Death Eaters, not much more than that.

  • Roonil Wazlib

    Whether it’s just a choice Rowling made or whether we decide to believe that Snape somehow orchestrated it on purpose, Dumbledore’s falling off the tower in death protects his body from the Death Eaters. If he had just crumpled to the floor, do we really think Bellatrix and friends would’ve left him lying there? And what would the following scenes be like if the Death Eaters were carrying around dead Dumbledore? Having him fall off the tower simplifies things and also saves Dumbledore’s body from further humiliation.

    • SnapesManyButtons

      I agree, it almost has to happen this way because it would just be too much on top of Dumbledore’s death to also show his body being attacked or taken by the Death Eaters. When Harry was “killed” in the forest it says he knew his body wouldn’t be allowed to remain unsullied and had to be subjected to humiliation. Surely the same would hold for Dumbledore’s body. Plus Dumbledore specifically told Snape that he wanted to avoid the messy affair that would occur if Greyback (who was on the tower) were involved in his death. We had a discussion about this on the forums and I suggested that perhaps Snape added a non-verbal spell to the Avada Kedavra that would have lifted him up and over the wall to protect him from this happening. Dumbledore is described as slipping down the wall so extra force on the spell should have just pushed him back into the wall, not up and over it. Just speculation, but no other Avada Kedavra ever threw someone up, they always just drop dead.

      • Roonil Wazlib

        Yeah exactly! The Death Eaters definitely would’ve done something similar to Dumbledore as they did to Harry in order to proclaim their victory. And you’re right, Dumbledore’s death looks very different from any other Avada Kedavra death we see in the series. I guess in my head I think of Sirius as also sort of floating backwards (into the curtain) after the curse hits him, but now I think that’s just the movie’s influence.

    • Eileen_Prince/Jones

      Nice, i like that explanation for it!

    • Paige Crawley

      I really like that. I had posted earlier about this, partly focusing on the narrative aspect, which i definitely think is part of it, and partly on the emotive properties of magic, but i had never considered this angle.

  • SlytherinKnight

    When the hosts discussed what Harry needed to know during Draco/Dumbledore’s conversation, I think that Dumbledore wanted Harry to know about self-sacrifice, pretty much reinforcing Harry’s martyr complex (that Dumbledore has nurtured all Harry’s life). Harry sees another person close to him being killed right in front of him (three straight books; Cedric in GOF, Sirius in OotP and now Dumbledore in HBP), and seeing that death really reinforces Harry’s martyr complex, his desire to see it through to the end and that death is not the end of one’s journey. This is where I really started questioning Dumbledore’s motives when I first read the books, because we all knew that even weakened that Dumbledore could easily handle Draco and why was Dumbledore just giving up at this point.

    • Slyvenpuffdor

      Dumbledore knew he had to die, it was all orchestrated, right? Sure he could have easily disarmed draco, but that’s not in the best interest of the greater goal.

    • Paige Crawley

      I think that dumbldore does acknowledge harry’s martyr complex, and the importance of it in certain instances, however i don’t think he would intentionally reinforce it, especially at this point in the book. In this chapter and the one preceding it, Dumbledore tells Harry he must follow every instruction he is given, which often prevents him from being hero-y and saving dumbledore at his own expense. He also freezes Harry in order to stop him from attacking Snape/Draco/death eaters. Because of this, i think dumbledore was trying to discourage the martyr complex. Dumbledore is attempting to show Harry that sometimes people have to sacrifice themselves for the ‘greater good'(which i think is another imprint from his childhood). Harry is only conscious of the sacrifices that occurred in the cave at the time since he didn’t know dumbledore’s death was planned. Thought I do think that the earlier sacrifices were important, Harry finding out later that dumbledore’s death was planned helped him develop as a person and to lose the martyr complex. I think this is implied in how Harry does not feel guilty at the end of Deathly Hallows.

      • lifeanddragons

        also because Harry kind of has to be alive to hunt down the remaining horcruxes and temporarily die at the hands of voldemort to truly destroy him.. For the greater good of course.

  • RoseLumos

    Do you think it is possible that Dumbledore was so “happy” to see Draco first was because it meant that Draco was the one to disarm him and get the elder wand, versus Snape? All along, it appears that both Dumbledore and Snape (and Voldemort) knew that Draco was never going to be the one to kill Dumbledore. I think all three of them knew that, in the end, Snape would have to do the deed. We know that Voldemort knew about the elder wand and killed Snape for that purpose, so it that why Dumbledore was secretly glad that Draco go there first? Dumbledore knew that Voldemort wasn’t clever enough or logical enough to realize that murder doesn’t mean “defeating”. So if Dumbledore is really the grand puppet master, do you think he planned out with Snape long ago to let Draco disarm him first? Voldemort would consider Draco a failure and would never consider killing Draco (at least for the wand). I think that Dumbledore knew that this little move of letting Draco be the first person to approach and disarm him would ultimately not only save Draco’s life, but would make Harry’s ultimate possession of the elder wand be an easier process.

    • Hufflepug

      I like that idea, especially the part about Dumbledore knowing that killing is not the same thing as defeating, which Voldemort is blind to. And Dumbledore would be one of the only people to know ownership of that wand can change through disarming as well as murder, since he defeated Grindelwald without killing him. But I do think planning for Draco to possess the Elder Wand leaves a lot up to chance. In one sense, it would be safer because Voldemort would never think about it. In another sense, when Harry does take Draco’s wand from him it’s in a very spur-of-the-moment situation in which Harry wasn’t even thinking about the Elder Wand. How would Dumbledore even know that taking Draco’s other wand would also switch the allegiance of the Elder Wand? I guess I still think Dumbledore planned on dying with the Elder Wand, which would have made the task of defeating Voldemort a lot more difficult for Harry. If Harry’s holly wand didn’t break then maybe he would have overpowered Voldemort’s new wand that wasn’t loyal to him, but in the end it really helped that Harry was the master of the Elder Wand.

      • RoseLumos

        I agree, it’s a long shot that the whole plan would work perfectly. I wouldn’t be surprised if Dumbledore did plan on dying with the Elder Wand, but considering there was a plot to kill him I think he would settle with anyone except Voldemort getting his wand. But who knows, maybe downstairs during the battle Snape somehow pushed Draco forward to the tower, knowing that at least Draco would never be capable of fully using the power of the Elder Wand.

        • SnapesManyButtons

          When Harry is talking to Voldemort at the end of DH he tells him that Dumbledore’s plan was to have Snape kill him by agreement so that Dumbledore would die as the Wand’s last master. He never planned for Draco to disarm him, and I don’t think he’d risk Draco’s life by having him end up as the Wand’s master just in case Voldy did figure it out. The messed up thing is that Dumbledore knew that Snape wouldn’t be the Wand’s master, but also that Voldemort would think that he was. I don’t think he mentioned that little fact to Snape, though.

          • Eileen_Prince/Jones

            Thats what i was saying on another comment! I thought i remembered something somewhere where dumbledore wanted snape to be the master of the wand, though…am i confusing the movie with the book?!? Or am i just completely wrong?

          • Hufflepug

            You’re right, that is messed up. All part of his plan for the “greater good,” you know? He could have at least told Snape the truth.

          • HowAmIGoingToTranslateThis

            If Snape had known about the Elder Wand and the ownership and wand allegiance and everything, it would have been another thing that he had to keep secret, and he already hides a great amount of things from Voldemort. What would it have changed for Snape to know this? He was always at risk of being killed by Voldemort, I don’t think he feared that anymore. You could say that it’s sad that Voldemort killed him for no reason, but somehow I regard Dumbledore’s quote about “don’t pity the dead” as applicable to Snape. He’s done his share of helping to get rid of the Dark Lord, so his sad brooding time on earth is over and he can go on to do other things in the afterlife.

    • Eileen_Prince/Jones

      I like this theory…does that mean though that Dumbledore deduced voldee might kill snape over the wand? Since Dumbledore deduces that voldee thinks killing is the way to win the wand, dumbledore should suspect snape is in danger…why did he not warn snape about that? Ack!

      • RoseLumos

        Well he doesn’t warn Harry about anything. Why would he warn Snape?

        • Eileen_Prince/Jones

          True that…classic dumbledore 😉

      • Paige Crawley

        if you’re right, my perception of dumbledore had been flipped upside down.

    • Dumbledore’s through & through

      When I read this I had to think about the moment in GoF when Harry tells Dumbledore how Voldemort used his blood to come back and notices for a second triumph in Dumbledore’s eyes, because as we later learn, this means Harry has the protection of his mother’s blood as long as Voldemort lives. I see both moments as not staged by Dumbledore, but rather reality proving to be even better than his clever plans, mostly because I don’t see him as puppet master who is behind everything. I definitely believe he knew Voldemort enough to guess he would eventually find out about the Elder Wand and kill Snape. But on a second thought, I’m not sure if Dumbledore was gald at all when Draco disarmed him. Because when the Elder Wand still has a master, it’s always a risk for this person, eigther because Voldemort might find out and kill them, or because they might find out and be corrupted by its power. There is no way Dumbledore could have forseen Harry would disarm Draco, therefore be the master of the wand and therefor be able to kill Voldemort finally, is there?

  • Hufflepug

    By telling Snape to kill him, Dumbledore is protecting Draco in more ways than one. Obviously he’s making sure that Draco gets his task done even though he needs help, but he’s also making sure that Voldemort doesn’t suspect Draco of having the Elder Wand. Of course Draco ends up as master of the wand anyway, but Voldemort does not figure this out until the very end. If Draco had killed Dumbledore, then Voldemort would have eventually killed him just as he killed Snape so he could have the Elder Wand. I like how much Dumbledore cares for his student, sees the good in him, and wants to protect him despite his strong connections to the bad side.

    • Paige Crawley

      that’s a great point! I had never thought of the Draco aspect before.

  • SocksAreImportant

    I have a question. Does Voldemort know about the elder wand prior to Snape killing Dumbledore? I know we as readers don’t learn about it until book 7, but I feel like Voldemort is learning it at that same time as well with his conversations with Ollivander, shown to us in Harry’s head. I’m not quite sure about this detail.

    • Eileen_Prince/Jones

      I could be wrong but i think ollivander tells him about the elder wand after lucius’ wand fails against harrys wand in the fight on the way to the burrow.

      • SocksAreImportant

        Thank you. That’s what I thought as well.

  • I always believed Snape to be good. From a strategic/writing standpoint it seemed obvious he was good because why would we be spending so much time on him? If he was bad, the payoff wouldn’t be as great as it was. So for me it wasn’t a question of if Snape was good but a question of why he was considered good and why he did the things he did. This also lends to why he is such a great character.
    Snape being good is a trope. He is a redeemable villain. I’m not surprised. I also wasn’t surprised when I watched/read Jurassic Park and saw bad things happen after the visitors entered the park. I wasn’t surprised when Beauty fell in love with the Beast. Snape being good meets a narrative expectation much like the two examples I just used do the same. In Jurassic Park you know chaos will occur, the question is how. In Beauty and the Beast you know they will fall in love, the question is how.

    • HowAmIGoingToTranslateThis

      Thank you for bringing in this aspect!

      I feel that after reading a lot of books and watching many movies, we learn how stories work and what tropes there are. So when tropes are used in a story, we can guess if the author will stick to them or somehow change them to get another result. Often when authors use tropes it makes it easier to guess how a story will go on. That often takes away the surprise, so some people don’t like to look at stories like this. Sometimes I like to analyse the tropes at the beginning of a story and then predict the ending (especially with children’s books), just to annoy others who tell me that the story very exciting because you can’t figure out how it will end – except you can if you know your tropes. :-)

  • skgai

    The reason I had loved Snape up until this point in the story is because he gets to be right against Harry. Not always, but many times in class Snape may say so rudely or with malice, but he is still right in his point. For example, James was lazy, he was arrogant. The conflict created between Snape and Harry by them both being right makes me truly love his character. I vastly prefer Snape being right against Harry as opposed to Dumbledore. Harry can take out his frustration over those issues out at Snape. A relationship where punishment is expected when you step out of the other person’s “line” is good for Harry on those moments. When Dumbledore supplies no punishment Harry fails to be able to fully release his anger, which, as a reader, makes me furious when reading Dumbledore. With Snape, I get to simultaneously love to hate him and love that he checks Harry down when Harry needs to be checked down.

    Furthermore, I, personally, never feel completely confident in knowing someone else. Even close friends and relatives, because you can never be in their mind. The people who say they “know” someone are often the ones who later say “I had no idea” after something bad happens. I always reserve judgement and Snape is written so that it is impossible to be sure about him even after the books are finished. I love the realism created by this character.

    • MoodyHorcrux

      Finally someone else backing Snape up on the forums! lol

  • Silverdoe25

    I think I could have listened to another hour of discussion on that chapter. Thanks for the double shout-out on that show: my podcast question of the week response and my comment about Voldemort possibly creating the cave.

  • Why are the hosts so quick to forgive Draco and find goodness in him while hate Snape so passionately? They are both characters influences by their upbringing. Draco may deserve a second chance, but not so easily.

    • SlytherinKnight

      I never liked that too much either. Draco committed attempted murder twice (necklace and Mead) plus cast a successful Unforgivable on Rosemerta, that a minimum of life in Azkaban but we see him free during the epilogue and having a family. Why does Draco get off so easily, yes he was only a child (age wise) but he still committed several very serious crimes.

      I’ve always felt that Draco was a lot like Wormtail in the sense that Draco was willing to talk big about blood puity and Voldemort, how he couldn’t wait to serve him but in the end, Draco is a coward, getting cold feet when the going got tough. Only difference between Wormtail and Draco is that Voldemort was killed before he got in to deep like Wormtail, also Wormtail didn’t have Dumbledore to protect him

      • Lisa

        I think with Draco it’s sort of a dilemma that he stands before, isn’t it? How would any of us react if someone told us they’d kill our family if we didn’t agree to kill a stranger? I’m not saying everyone would do it, but I don’t think it’s that obvious thar anyone would say “hell no!” and let their family die from moral reasons. Draco isn’t a nice guy, but growing up as he did, can you blame him? His father seemed to have groomed him to be a Death Eater or at least a Voldie-sympathizer and his mother agreed or was just indifferent to it all. Then of course, Voldemort comes back and starts making Draco torture people and kill people. That’s when Draco realizes he doesn’t have it in him. He’s spoiled, he’s a bully, he likes to talk the big talk but he’s no Bellatrix, at the end of the day.

      • lifeanddragons

        Yes. Thank you. I honestly think Draco should have faced some consequences too after almost murdering 2 students. I am not a Snape lover, but for argument sake, let’s just say Snape survived the battle of Hogwarts. Would he have been given a clean chit to just get back to his life teaching potions? Snape was a jerk. But at this point we can all agree that in his own twisted way he was working for the good side. But would that very same good side have forgiven him? After everything that he did, and not to mention what he did was mostly on Dumbledore’s orders. This time with no influential Dumbledore to keep him out of harms way, Snape would have had nothing left, which is unfair…

        • HowAmIGoingToTranslateThis

          It would have been a tough time to convince everyone that there’s more to his actions and that they need to look at them more closely. With Harry speaking up for him, there will be others from the order who will listen to his side of the story and then there will be a trial. It would be a question what Severus wants to happen, if he prefers to go quietly live somewhere in exile to read and never do magic again I’m sure that would have been considered. Going back to teaching would not be likely, he never really enjoyed that and somehow there are other things he might be better at. He should write potions books and have a small house with a garden and some pets to keep him company and find peace to heal. Others can help rebuilding, I feel it would be good and fair to have responsibility lifted from him, but not time in prison.

          • thequeerweasleycousin

            I agree, with Harry speaking up for him and explaining the whole “Dumbloedore wanted to die-story”, I think it would totally be possible for Snape to live his life outside Azkaban in peace. As soon as the battle of Hogwarts is over, he wouldn’t be in danger to
            get killed, so he could surrender and get a fair trial, considering
            Kinsley is in charge. It has worked for him before with Dumbledore, and Harry by this point has a lot of credibility and glory, so they would trust him. Also basically the whole wizarding community is in his debt for saving them.

            I think Snape wouldn’t be able to make a lot of friends, though, the Malfoys won’t be seeking his compainionship and everyone from the “good” side won’t be too friendly, either. Maybe Harry would visit at times, but the two of them always had a rather difficult relationship to get along too good. But as you pointed out, maybe a quiet life on his own would really be all Snape would ask for. Hermione should make sure Rita Skeeter is keeping still, though.

    • ISeeThestrals

      I think it may have to do with the fact that Draco’s not an adult even though he’s capable of committing some serious spells. He’s young enough for someone like Dumbledore to come along and try and steer him toward the path he’s best suited for. I think this stand against Snape might come from the fact that he’s an adult who can’t really be steered in a certain direction like the young who are still maturing and learning about themselves. But much of it must come from Snape’s personality and how he treats Harry. He’s a grown man yet he still taunts Harry and is biased. It’s moments like that where I see the strong similarities between Snape and Draco even though I’ve never thought to compare them before lol. We know Snape’s not gonna change himself, but in this chapter we see a glimmer of the possibility that Draco can.

      • “Draco is a child” is a silly argument. Where do we see a glimmer of change? Since we first met Draco he was a stuck up prat. Nowhere in the course of “maturing and growing up” do we see this change. We get to see him for a full 7 years. We get to see him reach “legal” adulthood. And what constitutes and adult? Why do we hate Snape when Snape was just barely an adult when he did his evil acts. Who’s to say that Draco even changes? At this point in the book we do not know Draco’s future and fate. He very well may grow up to be just as horrible as Snape. So I still don’t see why we forgive one and hate the other!

        • MoodyHorcrux

          I have to disagree with you. He started to changed quite a lot in the end of the 6th book and through-out the 7th. Everything he thought was right started to turn upside down on him and he had to seriously re-consider everything he stood for towards the end.
          Also, I do not hate either of them. I actually really like both of Snape and Draco, and sympathize and understand both of them.

          And I agree with you, what constitutes an Adult? Look around OUR society. Do you see all who are legal and of age, acting like an “adult”? Nooope. Not all of them.. I quite often see younger people who are more mature and have more morals then some 27 year olds. Age to me isn’t something that matters that much. It’s the person, and their story. Everyone grows, learns, and matures completely different, based on their family situation while they were growing up, what they experienced (did they receive kindness and encouragement or abuse and neglect), and how did that shape their image of the world? And how they treat themselves and others?

        • ISeeThestrals

          Draco being young is an argument heard a lot, but it’s not to say it excuses his behavior. At this point in this book, much focus is placed on the fact that Draco couldn’t kill Dumbledore. I think we do need to keep in mind that Snape did dark things when he was young too, but it’s possible it gets overshadowed by James’s bullying. It may all stem down to Snape being a frustrating character who’s difficult to read most cases. Perhaps the hosts will explain further on their feelings…

        • TheAmazingBouncingFerret

          I completely agree with you, I never thought of Malfoy as one of the good guys. Especially when I think about what he does in the final battle, when he’s not backed into a corner like he is now. He was going to give Harry up to Voldemort, so I guess as long as he doesn’t have to be the one to do the actual killing, he’s cool with it. True, he never crossed that “line of evil”, and after all, Snape is a full grown adult constantly throwing petty insults at kids he doesn’t like, which makes him very unlikable. I still think Snape did some right things for misguided reasons, and was not a nice person overall, but Malfoy is a spoiled child, and also has all the wrong ideas and morals, I get that he wouldn’t kill Dumbledore, but “not murderer” does not equal “good guy”, and all he did was out of arrogance at first, and then fear and desire to save himself.

        • VoiceofDobby

          I agree. Draco does not consider himself a child, and many others do not as well. And of course, there are so many nuances with adulthood. 12 year olds consider themselves adults, but to an 80 year old, a 30 year old is a kid. I think the biggest reason people have for forgiving Draco is that it wasn’t his idea. He was doing what he did because he was scared of voldemort and what he would do to his mother and himself. Truly, Draco was acting out of love for Narcissa. He was doing something he hated to protect a loved one, which i think makes his deeds forgivable.

          • HowAmIGoingToTranslateThis

            at first he did not hate his task, I think he liked getting that particular job that was considered difficult and impossible. Proving himself was very important besides keeping his mother save, and Dumbledore knows that and gives him the approval that the poor boy has been working for all year. The praise he gets from the other Death Eaters does not really go down well with Draco after Dumbledore has acknowledged his ingenuity.

    • thequeerweasleycousin

      Maybe it’s because we get to see quite a lot of Draco’s fears and desperations in this book. In the beginning, he’s bragging like he always does, but then we start to see him change, he looks paler, he’s crying in the bathroom, confessing his fears to Myrtle… And finally, he isn’t capable of killing Dumledore. It becomes clear that he has started to question all he admired for so long, and taht he’s solely acting out of fear for his family. In the next book he’s barly more than a bundle of nerves and terror, not able to do anything bad, because he’s so horrified by Voldemort’s cruelty. It’s easy to pity him. That being said, I still think he could and would have murdered, and if his dad was still one of Voldemort’s favorites, Draco could easily have grown up to be a committed Death Eater.

  • Quirrell also had a task to protect the stone. Quirrell was a team player!?! Kay’s points are so true, there is no reason to like or suspect Snape for good in the first 6 books.

  • Slyvenpuffdor

    A quick note on emotional reactions to deaths throughout the story: This is a movie-ism, but every time I watch the scene in GoF when Cedric’s father see’s his body and screams “That’s my boy! That’s my son!” I always get choked up. That actor portrays anguish so well.

    • SnapesManyButtons

      I know, and they really rub it in with the way he was always bragging on his son and so proud of him. It’s a great scene and always gets to me too.

    • SocksAreImportant

      I agree. That is definitely one of the saddest movie moments. The actor did do an amazing job.

      • MoodyHorcrux

        … Not to mention, Dan’s crying was much more satisfying and real in that scene, then in the third movie… that’s a moment when you sink into your chair and hide your face….. lol

        • SocksAreImportant

          Yes yes yes! I couldn’t agree more. The third movie cry is horrible. I call it a cringe worthy moment. The movie series has about a handful of those that I chose to forget exist. Sorry off topic, but my number one worst cringe worthy movie moment is “let’s finish this the way we started it, together”. The way Harry grabs Voldemort’s neck and takes him off the ledge just does not work with me.

          • Hufflepug

            Ah, cringe worthy moments. My big one is the freeze-frame of Harry on the Firebolt at the end of PoA. It’s so awkward and out of place, and what an unflattering picture of Dan haha. And then of course there’s “HARRY! DID YOU PUT YOUR NAME IN THE GARBALLAFURRRR?!”

          • SocksAreImportant

            Hmm the freeze frame end never bothered me which is surprising because a lot of my cringe worthy moments come from PoA. And of course you bring up the famous Dumbledore asked “calmly” scene. First seeing this, I remember thinking, isn’t he supposed to be more relaxed in this scene. lol

          • Hufflepug

            I know several people who don’t mind the freeze frame either :)

          • VoiceofDobby

            you know, i was never incredibly bothered by this. I’m probably going to get internet-yelled at for this, but I prefer Michael Gambon to Richard Harris. Sure, there are a couple scenes that get kind of screwed up, but i feel like Harris was too reserved and quiet. One of my favourite book Dumbledore characteristics is his small eccentricities. I think Gambon did this better.
            Also, we literally had Harris for two movies, before his character was fully developed, so it’s entirely possible he would have similar, or completely different, issues portraying such a complex character.

          • HowAmIGoingToTranslateThis

            I’m fine with both Dumbledore-actors, I’m sure they’d both done a good job doing all the movies. While reading the books before the movies I always pictured Dumbledore as a twin of Merlin in Disney’s The Sword in the Stone. A tiny bit less clumsy, maybe, and with a phoenix that doesn’t talk as much as Archimedes does, but otherwise quite similar.

        • lifeanddragons

          movie 5 when sirius dies too…something just feels off for me in that scene. ohh dan.

  • What happened to Snape Escape from the early podcast episodes?

    • Paige Crawley

      good question…

  • SocksAreImportant

    Just wanted to say that I really enjoyed having Ashley as the guest host on this episode. It is nice to see a Snape fan like myself on the podcast. He has always been my favorite and I understand completely her reasons for liking him. :)

  • VoiceofDobby

    I want to start a discussion on Trelawney. Do you guys think she really does have ability? Do you think she’s aware of it?
    I know this is pretty overdone, but I think this chapter gives some more evidence to be considered.

    Personally I think she does have the ability, but slightly watered down. Whenever she makes a prediction, though by a stretch, it is usually somehow correct.

    • Eileen_Prince/Jones

      I’d say proof that she tells legit prophecies is that one was in the hall of prophecies in book 5. She just doesn’t know it because she is always in a trance. I wonder if all seers go into a trance when they spout prophecy, or if she is the only one.

      • VoiceofDobby

        that’s one thing i want to know as well. My theory on it is that Trelawney has a hidden, watered down ability to tell the future, and that the trances allow her to get down to that part of her self, but other times it manages to slip through

        • Eileen_Prince/Jones

          Theres a bunch of stuff i read on pinterest about her. It says that her grandmothers name is cassandra. There is a cassandra in greek mythology who had the power of seeing the future but a curse that no one would believe her prophecies. There is also a pin that said when she predicted that harry was born midwinter that she was actually reading the part of voldees soul that was in harry, his bday is apparently new years eve. So i think she has powers, but she doesn’t really control it.

          • HowAmIGoingToTranslateThis

            she can not interpret what she is seeing beyond what she knows from books or other instructions. So throwing her crystal orbs at Death Eaters in the Battle of Hogwarts is a more practical way of using them than glancing into them for hours, because what she will get out of them is unapplicable for others.

  • lifeanddragons

    Is it possible that Snape’s immense hatred and strong feelings caused Dumbledore’s body to somehow get raised up and thrown off. I went back to GoF where Mad eye (the fake one anyway) was showing the class the unforgiveables, and in that, the spider he kills slides across the table towards Ron from what seems like the sheer force of the spell. i know Cedric merely crumpled to the ground but it’s possible that the sort of extra movement is something that comes with strong emotion while performing the spell. (Any spell not just avadakedavra…, we see simple spells sometimes having jerky or violent effects when cast aggressively, think Accio, spells the twins use..etc) Cedric was killed with such indifference, and his murder wasn’t remarkable to Voldemort. Just random, no feeling whatsoever. So he simply fell to the ground and that was that.

    So coming back to Dumbledore, Snape was looking at him with a look of pure hatred and revulsion. He hated the fact that Dumbledore pushed him into this corner, making him commit the act of murder, which he doesn’t want to, and how he has no choice but to play the part of the bad guy here. I’d hate Dumbledore too, if I was Snape. So all of this hatred and anger put into the spell he doesn’t want to cast and BAM, Dumbledore in already backed against the wall, so the force that hits him carries him upwards instead, and if that force explains Dumbledore being carried up, then the moment of suspension is simple physics, When an object is thrown upwards against gravity, it’s speed reduces until the object becomes motionless ie speed 0, before accelerating to the ground under the influence of gravity. ( I am horrified to even talk about Dumbledore’s body like that but, gosh physics..)

    • RoseLumos

      That reminds me of PoA when Harry, Ron, and Hermione all try to disarm Snape at the same time in the Shrieking Shack. The force of all three of them doing it (especially when he was yelling and insulting everyone in the room) threw Snape back and knocked him out. Sure, there were three of them doing the spell at the same time, but I think it proves your point – sometimes the more emotion behind the spell, the more powerful it becomes.

    • VoiceofDobby

      This has always been my thought on the matter(.minus the physics). this scene is such a red herring, but in hindsight, everything that occurs makes perfect sense. Also the scene at the end of PoA is a great example of this occurring.

    • VoiceofDobby

      I also think that some more reasons why cedric just dropped dead are a) i don’t think wormtail was using his own wand, which lessens the power of the magic produced, b) it was not wormtail’s true desire to kill cedric, which takes away the emotional advantage a spell may have, and c) i don’t think wormtail was that powerful a wizard to begin with

    • SnapesManyButtons

      That makes some sense, though I think Snape’s reluctance would weaken the spell if anything. Regardless, extra force wouldn’t push him up, just harder in the direction that the spell hit him. If you’re talking physics then a force moving in a line from Snape’s wand to wherever it hit Dumbledore would continue to move in that direction thus pushing Dumbledore in that same direction, not up. When he hits the wall, if it is vertical or nearly so, the wall would create a force pushing back in the same direction, not upwards. There would not be a change of direction unless another force acted on him in an upward direction. Even then the force of the spell is pushing him away from Snape, the resistance of the wall is pushing him towards Snape, gravity is trying to pull his body downward, and the friction between him and the wall is trying to hold him in place, so an upward force would have to overpower all that. (Thus the non-verbal levitation spell theory.) Of course there’s always the very real possibility that Rowling doesn’t know her physics…

      • lifeanddragons

        Snape’s reluctance was accompanied with hatred, and hatred is a powerful emotion, and yes, i understand the hole in my physics, Would Snape being much shorter than Dumbledore explain the spell being cast at an upward angle? If not, then non-verbal levitation it is! Take the wizard way out of it and say magic ><.

        • SnapesManyButtons

          If Dumbledore was near to or slumping against the wall, it would take a near-vertical force to send him up and over the wall. Let’s say Dumbledore is 12 inches taller than Snape and Snape is 10 feet away. The angle that Snape hits him from would only be upward at about 6 degrees. Given that he was probably farther away than that, the angle would be even smaller the farther he was (about 3 degrees at twenty feet.) The answer is probably that that’s the way Rowling wanted it to happen and she doesn’t really know much about physics.

  • Dumbledore’s through & through

    One last question: Dumbledore offers Malfoy to hide him and his family and protect them if he wants to change sides. With him being killed minutes later, how would that have worked? How would he have done it? Was he offering something he wouldn’t have been able to deliver?

    The only way I can imagie it is Dumbledore somehow informing Snape before he dies, telling him to take care of them. But wouldn’t that be incredibly dangerous for Snape? The Malfoys would know about his alliances then, and personally I wouldn’t trust them a bit with this information. Or would the Order somehow take over? Somehow I can’t see how this could possibly have worked…

    • HowAmIGoingToTranslateThis

      Dumbledore had a plan ready how to get Draco to safety in minutes, and yes it would have been more difficult to move it into action with the Death Eaters present. Maybe it would not have worked because he had to little time.

      But let’s not forget the two broomsticks that are right there, let’s not forget Fawkes. And invisible Harry who is watching and would take out at least two Death Eaters until the others notice him. Dumbledore can easily lift his freezing spell on Harry even without a wand.

      If Snape is somehow involved – he might, but there are other order members who can be helpful hiding Draco and Narcissa, people we have not met yet because they are only to be activated for this specific situation – it will be more dangerous for him, but it has been ridiculously dangerous all the time, so it doesn’t matter.

      As for not trusting the Malfoys… In Dumbledore’s world it works like this. Draco get’s a second chance, you get a second chance, and YOU get a second chance, you get a second chance, everybody gets a second chance!

  • MrsSlrKls

    This will always be the best and worst chapter of all. I remember being up all night, and all of the following day, and even missed work because I was totally engrossed in this book. When the moment came, I was truly holding my breath. I never even once considered that Dumbledore would die. I know, how nieve of me. He had just always been there to swoop in and save the day and I just assumed he would always be there to do so. I mean, he was the most powerful wizard in the world! How could a greasy haired jerk like Snape kill him?!? I have no love for Snape. Even now, knowing the whole story. He’s still a jerk and I still don’t like him. Respect his bravery, yes, like him, NO! When he fired off that killing curse I was in so much shock that it took me at least a few paragraphs of the next chapter before it sunk in. I had to go back and re-read it at least three times. The “lines of hatred etched in his face” was just so powerful. I recall screaming “I KNEW YOU WERE EVIL, I HATE YOU, NO, NOT DUMBLEDORE” along with a lot of profanities in the mix. And then, the sadness kicked in. This book will literally be stained with my tears forever. To this day, I can’t read it or see it without crying. Just talking and thinking about it now has me misty-eyed. He was a great man (puppet master attributes and all) and the wizarding world suffered a horrible loss. I will always be thankful for the years I had with him.

    • HowAmIGoingToTranslateThis

      impressive how intense reading experiences can be!

      • MrsSlrKls

        especially since it was like 10 years ago and i still remember it so vividly