ep 187

Episode 187: DH, 36 – Anything For The Snog

Seven book, four years, many feelings, and we’re finally here: the last numbered chapter. Harry’s final confrontation with Voldemort. The close of this hero’s journey. Join hosts Rosie, Kat, and Alison, along with this week’s guest host, MuggleNet’s own Claire, as they fight their way (much like Hermione, Luna, Ginny, and Molly!) through the end of the battle and chapter 36, “The Flaw in the Plan.”

On Episode 187 we discuss…

→ Episode 186 Recap: Did Harry really have a choice?; Types of Evil; Why is Voldemort so ambivalent?; Processing dreams; Should Harry have died?
→ PQOTW Responses
→ Was Voldemort in King’s Cross with Harry & Dumbledore?
→ WHY HAGRID?
→ Is Neville acting foolishly?
→ Voldemort fears for resurrection
→ Does Voldemort believe Harry knows something he doesn’t?
→ How confident was Harry?
→ PTSD, it’s real
→ Question of the Week
→ Check out the Alohomora! store

To listen to the show, simply click the player below or direct download the episode. You can also subscribe to us on iTunes. For more information about the podcast and to find out how to be on the show, check out our Be On The Show! page.

Don’t forget to leave us a voicemail at our phone number: 1-206-GO-ALBUS (462-5287). Skype users can also send us a message to username AlohomoraMN. And as always, be sure to continue the discussion below or on our Forums!

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  • daveybjones999 .

    I haven’t even listened to the podcast yet so hopefully what I’m about to say hasn’t been mentioned in the episode. Something that I just noticed, that I don’t think anyone has mentioned yet, is that there is another reason why Voldemort killing Snape was ultimately pointless and stupid. He’s under the impression that the Elder Wand is only loyal to those who killed the previous owner, but he shouldn’t. He traced the wand to Dumbledore by finding Gregorivitch who revealed that a thief stole it. The thief turns out to be Grindlewald, and from he there finds out that Dumbledore must own it since he defeated Grindlewald. So that proves that the Elder Wand can’t be passed on only by killing because if that were true, Dumbledore couldn’t have possessed the wand since he didn’t kill Grindlewald, and Grindlewald would never have even possessed it in the first place because he didn’t kill Gregorivitch. And also if it were true that the Elder Wand only changes allegiance by killing the previous owner Voldemort should have already possessed the Elder Wand way earlier in the book when he killed Gregorovitch.

    • ISeeThestrals

      Good point. I have to say I was terrible at keeping track of who had who’s wand and whatnot.

    • DragonHeartString

      I’ve always found this odd too. Another thing- wasn’t the wand stolen from Gregorivitch? Would that result in a transfer in loyalties to Grindelwald and then on Dumbledore and Draco?

      The Deathly Hallows as a whole don’t live up to the myth. The wand is ‘unbeatable’ yet all its masters seem to meet untimely ends. The stone doesn’t resurrect souls in a manner that most people would generally think of as resurrection. The cloak is the closest to what is described in the story but its owners will die eventually. I really liked how the legend of the Deathly Hallows is worked into the plot as being both a story and a historical account, and we can’t entirely know where fact stops and fiction starts.

      • dustcharm

        I think this is where the distinction between “immortal” and “master of death” is important. I don’t think being the master of death means immortal or even that you avoid death. I got the impression it meant that you maybe “understand” it. You are then able to “greet it as an old friend” when the time comes. The true master of death would not be trying to use the hallows for power or for your own gain (by bringing back the dead who no longer belong in the world of the living or settling old scores). The true master of death is humble, not greedy (as even Dumbledore was), and would not be flaunting that he has the wand, cloak, or stone. That person would just be wanting to live out his natural life without being followed by death. But if you go around announcing what you are, that is exactly what would be your downfall.

    • dustcharm

      I’ve always thought this was off too. The wand is transferred by winning it, not necessarily killing the previous master. Voldemort killed Snape (or, rather, made Nagini kill him) but that doesn’t mean he actually won the wand.

      Plus, I’ve also always thought “unbeatable” was an inappropriate way to describe it. You win it by winning against it; you win it by beating it. So while it is an exceedingly powerful wand, something beyond anything else previously known, it is not unbeatable.

      • daveybjones999 .

        When the book talks about the Elder Wand being unbeatable I think it means that it’s unbeatable in a duel. Specifically if you have the Elder Wand and you’re in a duel that means you can’t lose because it’s unbeatable that way. But even that ends up being completely untrue because Grindlewald had the Elder Wand and still lost to Dumbledore. In fact that’s one of the things I love about the Deathly Hallows, none of them are nearly as powerful as they would seem. That being said I do agree that the word unbeatable is probably the wrong word to use.

        • dustcharm

          Yes, that’s what I mean. It’s not unbeatable if you win it by beating it.

  • ISeeThestrals

    I always saw Narcissa’s hand contracting on Harry as a release of the fear she’d been holding for Draco, rather than a show of gratitude to Harry.That she’s just so relieved the big release of tension made her pierce him or also that she’s gripping onto the thing that gave her hope,rather than expressing thanks to Harry.

  • Lisa

    I was out to dinner with some friends and couldn’t wait coming home and listening to this episode! Stupid social life getting in the way of Potter nerdiness. So anyway so many thoughts! I liked the discussion but felt that some points were a bit rushed. But nevermind! Regarding how Bellatrix knew it was Fred- I always thought it was because she was around when it happened and heard people screaming his name and crying. But your explanation works too because it is a very small community and everybody seems to know what everybody else is doing (Voldy knowing about Tonks’s marriage always struck me as weird). Molly and Bellatrix could have gone to Hogwarts at the same time as Molly is just 2-3 years older than Bellatrix.

    I agree that the DH part 2 movie sort of messed up the battle scenes. If something works so well in the books then why on earth do they need to change it? You never change what works! The fact that Voldemort became a dead body instead of confetti is an important part of the story since his death was something he was deeply afraid of. But maybe the movie makers thought that a dead body would be too traumatizing to see for the young audience? I don’t know.

    What else? Oh, Neville became the Gryffindor everyone beside himself knew he always was. Ginny was useless as usual and the only one from Harry’s entourage that ended up not doing anything important in the battle. It seems like Rowling thought her being Harry’s love interest was enough and anything else would have been too much. It’s a shame since her character needed a moment to shine, IMO.

    But yeah, this whole chapter was so emotional for me to read the first time. Not only did it mark the end of the Potter saga (aside from the epilogue) but also because the two characters I’ve loved the most ended up dead. I always knew it was going to happen but still… that’s what you get for loving villains!

    • ISeeThestrals

      I’m in the middle of listening to this episode and I expected the podcast to be much longer than it looks.

    • Henry Parkes

      I personally always so Fred and Molly’s relationship with Bella as a great untold story. Did Bella have anything to do with the deaths of Gideon and Fabian? Did Molly once meet Bella in her youth, Bella was only 2 years younger than her so they would have been at Hogwarts at the same time. And just what did Fred and George get up to during the Second Wizarding War? Just picture them pulling all the tricks they pulled on Umbridge but times 10 on Bellatrix and other deatheaters. These stories need sharing JK.

      • Lisa

        I’m not sure Molly has any history with Bellatrix. It would in a way make sense if she did since she was so determined to kill Bellatrix (the whole “she’s mine” thing implies some history) but we really don’t any indication that they’ve even met each other before the battle. Molly’s brothers were killed by Dolohov, it’s never implied Bellatrix had anything to do with it. Molly and Tonks were friends so maybe Molly knows Bella killed Tonks?

        • Henry Parkes

          Completely agree there’s no evidence to suggest that Molly and Bella had ever met before, at least in book canon. However we know at least 5 death eaters were involved in the attacks that killed Fabian and Gideon. It’s complete conjecture that one of them could have been Bella, but it would make sense. IT’s not necessary, I think Bells nearly killing Ginny alone is enough to warrant Molly’s reaction. However, I’m dealing in the area of expanded canon and fanfcition, and think it would be a very interesting story to tell.

    • skgai

      Excellent point about Ginny. Her use as a character from Book 6 on has always been some JKR’s weakest writing and worst story ideas.

      The reason I have no problem with Voldy’s death in the movies is that they never explained what happens when you get his with Avada Kedevra. They never concentrated on the idea that Voldy literally mechanized his soul. So if you don’t have that setup why not make it look freakin badass, which it does. I love the sound of Voldy entering nothiness. I love it!

  • expecto-pootronum

    Congratulations on finishing all the numbered chapters, guys, you’re amazing!

    I’d like to touch on your conversation on Dumbledore from last week’s comments – I was honestly kind of surprised at the strength of some of the hosts’ conviction that the King’s Cross Dumbledore is the real one. To me it was never even really a question, because it makes so much sense that he isn’t.

    Harry has spent the better part of this book struggling to come to terms not only with Dumbledore’s death, but also with the person that he turns out to have been. As you’ve discussed previously, the moment at Shell Cottage where Harry is digging Dobby’s grave marks a huge turning point in this struggle. He chooses to accept that Dumbledore didn’t tell him the whole truth, and trust in the path Dumbledore pointed him towards. This not only lets Harry ultimately succeed in defeating Voldemort, but also finally lets him be at peace with his memories of Dumbledore, and overcome the resentment and bitterness he’s been feeling.

    I therefore read King’s Cross Dumbledore as more of an aspect of Harry himself, and their interaction symbolizes Harry putting together all the pieces and inferring the smaller details of Dumbledore’s backstory.

    Were there parts of the conversation that seemed like new information to Harry? Yes, but if we take the
    example of Harry’s wand acting out during his escape from Privet Drive, is it really so hard to imagine Harry could’ve come up with the answer himself? He knows a fair amount about both wandlore and
    his connection to Voldemort by this point, so it doesn’t seem like too much of a stretch to me.

    Another point (and I’m sorry for going on for so long) is that Dumbledore has taught Harry that even if his loved ones die, they will always be in his heart and be a part of him. This, together with the fact that Harry made peace with his memory of Dumbledore was, to me, a very strong indication that King’s
    Cross was really just an instance of profound introspection on Harry’s part. He already had all the answers, and this was his opportunity to put them all together so they made sense. What better
    image to assume for this than Dumbledore, the very person he’s always turned to for answers?

    Hence the all-in-my-head line – this really IS all just in Harry’s head, but as we’ve been taught, just
    because Dumbledore is gone doesn’t make him any less real in Harry’s heart.

    • Wokanshutaiduo

      I absolutely agree with this! This also explains to me why the explanations ‘Dumbledore’ gives are incomplete and imperfect – parts of it even being wrong in my opinion. Whereas if it had been a true interaction with the dead; I feel that Dumbledore should have had a greater and more accurate understanding of the secrets of life and how Harry needs to proceed from here.

      • expecto-pootronum

        My thoughts exactly! All the answers he gave were definitely things Harry could’ve come up with himself.
        Also, to open a whole other can of worms, King’s Cross would’ve been THE perfect place for Dumbledore to tell Harry about his feelings for Grindelwald while he’s asking for forgiveness. Leaving out the real world aspect of Rowling making the conscious choice not to include his sexuality in the story (which I have strong feelings about), it would make sense that “Dumbledore” doesn’t mention them, since Harry is notoriously slow on the uptake about these things and probably wouldn’t have picked up on it.

        • Lisa

          There are hints of Dumbledore’s feelings though. He tells Harry that GG’s ideas “inflamed him” and also has a tear in his eye when Harry tells him that Gellert didn’t want Voldemort to invade his (Dumbledore’s) grave. I agree that it could have been mentioned more explicitly and I’m uncomfortable with Rowling receiving a bunch of tolerance points despite not including this issue in the books.

          • expecto-pootronum

            True, those are definitely hints. I think the problem is just that, unless stated otherwise, most people wouldn’t really assume from those that Dumbledore was actually properly in love.
            Definitely with you on the tolerance points thing. LGBTQ+ representation in Harry Potter is a discussion that could probably fill five podcast episodes on its own.

          • Soc.forRescueofVanishedAnimals

            You could suggest that as one of the special topics for the upcoming episodes — it would be really interesting to hear your and others’ thoughts in more detail. My initial impression when reading this book was that Dumbledore was probably in love with Grindelwald, based on the letter excerpted in Rita’s biography, the hints in King’s Cross, and the way it seemed to fit with the direction his characterization was taking in this book (i.e., developing Dumbledore’s emotional layers and the experiences that shaped him). So I wasn’t at all surprised when Rowling confirmed that, but it does sound like many people were surprised.

          • expecto-pootronum

            Great idea! It’s definitely a topic that’s worth discussing, especially since it means so much to so many people.

            To be honest I can’t remember how I initially read the Dumbledore/Grindelwald dynamic. Might be cause my seventeen-year-old self wasn’t great at consuming media critically. Or might be that I just forgot. It’s really interesting to hear how others either did or didn’t pick up on it though.

    • skgai

      I concur sir or madam! It’s the same with the Ressurection Stone moment. It’s so much more moving if Harry is connecting with his heart instead of with actual ressurected people. And here, it’s so much more moving if Harry connects the dots on his own. It makes Harry’s story arc of enlightenment so much more powerful.

      • expecto-pootronum

        Exactly! His whole journey has been about coming to terms with the deaths of people close to him, and understanding the ways that they are still with him even after they’re gone. I always thought the resurrection stone “ghosts” and King’s Cross Dumbledore were the pinnacle of this whole emotional journey. It’s one of the most beautiful themes in the entire story.

  • ISeeThestrals

    I was expecting all the hosts of Alohomora to be present for what’s technically the last chapter of Harry’s journey. Be awesome if they will be for the epilogue

    • Alison

      We try our best, but with our Muggle lives, the fact that we span time zones from the UK to the western US, and other factors, it can be really tricky for all of us to get together! We do as much as we can though :)

  • Wokanshutaiduo

    Regarding Harry not feeling the Crucio – I am also of the camp that it wasn’t due to the blood protection. If you recall, Voldemort was able to cast Crucio on Harry in the graveyard without consequence, and that was after the blood exchange occurred.

    Personally, the blood protection explanation for why Harry survived here doesn’t fly with me at all. The idea that Harry’s blood in Voldemort keeps him tethered to life like a Lightcrux doesn’t work for me.

    I actually prefer the initial hypothesis made that Harry has grown to throw off Cruciatus in a similar way to the Imperius. The pain of the curse is a mental one rather than a physical after all, so I can see this working, particularly in conjunction with his near death experience and his mind still returning to his body.

    • ISeeThestrals

      Harry was affected by the crucio curse in the graveyard, as he described the pain of it. Aside from that, I’ve always seen crucio as a physical pain rather than mental. The one curse that is for sure mental is imperio, and mental curses I can see someone being able to work off more than a physical attack as that’s striking the nerves.

      • Wokanshutaiduo

        That’s what I meant, Harry felt the Cruciatus in the graveyard therefore the blood protection explanation doesn’t fly with me. (I meant no consequence for Voldemort in casting it on Harry.)

        What makes you interpret the Cruciatus as physical? Much like the killing curse, it leaves no physical marks or damage. The only lasting damage we see from it is the Longbottoms and that damage is entirely mental as they went insane from the pain of it. It FEELS physical, I think Harry describes it as being stabbed all over the body by burning knives. But in reality, there are no knives, no stab wounds – the pain is felt entirely within himself.

        I agree that I don’t think Harry has consciously advanced far enough to truly overthrow the curse. When even master Occlumens such as Snape have never been demonstrated to be able to block this, I don’t think that Harry is suddenly a prodigy at separating mind and body. I do however believe that having just had this out-of-body experience in his mindscape, his mind and body are already sufficiently divided in this moment for him to block out the Cruciatus.

        • ISeeThestrals

          That’s what makes me see it as physical even though it doesn’t leave any marks. Because the victim feels it intensely. Yeah if it goes on long enough it becomes mental, but I’ll always see it as physical, while I deem imperio as mental cause that’s an attempt to control the mind.

          I would accept that it’s cause Harry was newly reunited with his body so the curse doesn’t quite affect him. I think I’d have a bit of a problem with wizards being able to eventually fight off some of the most powerfully curses. Out of the 3 top curses, the unforgivables, I can go with wizards being able to eventually block out an imperious curse. Harry overcame the imperious, he survived the killing curse. I’m more inclined to feel his return to his body shielded him as his being able to throw off crucio would make him a little too perfect at escaping damage, and you don’t want your heroes being able to escape difficult things perfectly.

          • Wokanshutaiduo

            I still don’t really see that to be honest. “Of course it’s happening inside your head, but why on earth should that mean it isn’t real?” I feel that a mental pain would feel just as real and severe to the person experiencing it – worse in a way because a direct attack on the body would result in the brain eventually activating plain blocking pathways. Whereas neuropathic pain just goes on and on and and the brain can’t handle it.

            I’m also inclined to feel his return to his body is what shielded him, but I still feel it is theoretically possible to throw off the Cruciatus.

    • Lisa

      I thought it was because none of Voldemort’s curses were binding. Isn’t that what Harry tells him during his grand speech? “I did what my mother did, none of your curses affects anyone, bla bla”?. Voldemort also tries to set Neville on fire and as far as I recall that doesn’t work either.

      • Wokanshutaiduo

        Aha I don’t like this explanation either, much like the hosts said.
        For one thing I don’t think that his sacrifice works to protect HIMSELF because that makes no sense. Also, Harry didn’t ACTUALLY die, he only meant to – so I don’t see his sacrifice having an equal effect as Lily’s. I don’t like this concept at all really, it’s too much of a deux ex machina and it renders Voldemort entirely powerless.

        • Lisa

          Well yeah, I get that but if this is the canon explanation then I guess we have to accept it? There are plenty of things about the Elder wand, Harry’s sacrifice and the final battle in general which don’t make much sense, in my opinion.

          About the sacrifice though, Harry really did think he was going to die and he still went ahead with it so I would say it’s similar to what Lily did. because the intention was to die to save others even if he ended up surviving. If Harry knew he was going to live, then of course the protection effect wouldn’t have worked because it wouldn’t have been a true sacrifice.

          • Wokanshutaiduo

            Yes and no. I agree that textual canon needs to be accepted as Jo’s intention, but I disagree that it has to be accepted as absolute fact. Textual canon is still limited by the characters’ knowledge and understanding; which leaves room for fans to speculate and theorise to our heart’s content!

          • skgai

            Textually it’s clear that Harry needn’t have actually died for the blood protection to protect eveyone. However, it certainly shouldn’t protect Harry so I’m also not sure why Harry doesn’t feel anything when he’s Crucio. I assume Voldemort’s wands couldn’t do anything to Harry after his own Horcrux was destroyed. Before that moment, as evidenced by the graveyard scene, Voldemort could use his wand against Harry because Voldemort was still inside him. Priori Incantatem gave Harry’s wand the power of Voldemort’s and the knowledge of the horcruxes. Harry then gained the allegience of the Elder Wand which was allowed, by Harry, to kill the part of Voldy inside Harry. However, once that task was completed Harry would not want to be hurt by Voldemort so the Elder Wand couldn’t affect Harry regardless of what Voldemort did.

    • QuasiQuantumQuaffle

      I have an other theory to this. As we all know you really have to want the other person to feel pain if you cast a cruciatus curse. No doubt Voldemort is able to do that BUT at this point he believes Harry to be dead. You cannot make a corpse feel pain and I think even Voldemort knew that. So my explanation is: He casted cruciatus but his heart wasn’t really in it, since he thought that it would have not the typical effect. So it didn’t really work. Harry get’s just thrown in the air a little bit. I think a similar thing happened when Harry tried to curse Bellatrix in Order.

      • Accio Brains

        I searched especially to see if someone made this comment because this is what I always thought! Like the thing that gets repeated (by fake Moody, by Bellatrix, by Harry a few chapters ago) throughout the series is that you have to really mean it for the Unforgivables to have effect. If Voldemort really thought Harry was dead he would have no expectation or intent of causing pain because a corpse cant feel pain. So he just intended to use Crucio to the extent that it would move Harry’s body involuntarily (as I guess the curse would do so normally as you involuntarily react to the pain and as you said re: Bellatrix in Order)

  • Wokanshutaiduo

    Hagrid lurching and coming to a halt at Voldemort’s command – I don’t think this is indicative of Hagrid being under the Imperius curse. I think this is more of a parallel to how Voldemort made Harry bow in the graveyard – by physically forcing him to do so with his magic (that’s a bit of a contradiction in terms but you get what I mean!)

    Why Hagrid is there – I don’t think it was exactly premeditated by Voldemort that Hagrid is the perfect symbolic person to have there; rather, that Hagrid already happened to be in the Forest courtesy of the Acromantula. I can definitely see that after Hagrid wound up there that Voldemort would find it fitting to keep Hagrid there as a prisoner instead of killing him outright. For one thing he could use Hagrid as a hostage if Harry didn’t give himself up on his own; and it would cause Hagrid more pain to watch Harry die than to simply die himself.

    • ISeeThestrals

      Personally I don’t think Voldemort had to use any spell to command Hagrid. With his friend dead before him, Hagrid is vulnerable enough to follow Voldemort’s orders without putting up a need or desire to resist. Compared to reality, someone brutally hurts someone you love, you respond emotionally by trying to fight back or giving in to what the bad guy wants.

      I wonder how many fall on the idea of Voldemort sending the Acromantula to capture Hagrid. I’m not sure I ever fell to a certain reason why he was there in the first place. There’s been a lot of good theories, but I don’t see Voldemort caring much about how Hagrid feels to bring him into his plan. It makes sense he could be a hostage to lure Harry, but there’s already a castle full of people Voldemort knows Harry cares about. And Voldemort’s aware that Harry is aware that lots of people have died already on his behalf. I wonder if Voldemort would wonder if it would matter to threaten Hagrid’s life because of that fact?

      I tend to feel like Voldemort says things like that because he truly wants to see it that way even if they’re lies and, yeah he does want to impact the crowd. With Voldemort he’s the only great one in his eyes and he won’t acknowledge anything positive about Harry. He just wants to keep raising himself up.

  • Wokanshutaiduo

    Neville’s actions – I absolutely agree that this is him being the brash Gryffindor and shouting his defiance without any plan of how he could actually harm Voldemort or Nagini. It’s a continuation of what he’s been doing all year – he’s fighting back even when it’s probably a losing battle, he’s inspiring everybody else and reminding them never to give up.

    • ThatTimeRemusWaddiwasiedVoldy

      Agreed. Also, I think Neville is fully aware that this action on his part could very well end with Voldemort killing him, but just doesn’t care. Harry entrusted him with carrying on to kill the snake and Neville fully intended to live up to the task or die trying.

    • ThatTimeRemusWaddiwasiedVoldy

      Also, on the topic of Neville, was anyone else completely horrified at the image of Neville trapped under the flaming hat? That would have been such an exceptionally awful way for him to die if it had gone as Voldemort planned. Dying by fire is one of my worst fears though so it struck me as particularly brutal and horrific.

      • ISeeThestrals

        I feel like I got a little shock when I first read about the hat becoming flamed on his head. Can you imagine if they tried to work that scene into the movie :O?

        • ThatTimeRemusWaddiwasiedVoldy

          Yeah, if they had I’m sure it potentially could have bumped the rating up. I mean, any movie showing people being burned at the stake or lit on fire is pretty horrific. It probably would have been difficult to work out a way to do it that would have been acceptable for PG 13, so I’m okay that they didn’t.

    • ISeeThestrals

      That’s a typical hero trope right there. Neville has come a long way.

  • Wokanshutaiduo

    “YOU GUYS ALL AGREE WITH VOLDEMORT” – THANKYOU FOR SAYING THIS ON THE RECORD!

  • Wokanshutaiduo

    I definitely agree with you about the movie death scene. The confetti death was terrible – but the book death was perfect.

    • …and then, Albus, we all went home and had a party with some grey confetti Ron found.

  • How bizarre. I live in Japan, I’ve been to the wizarding world here, and I work for the transcript team here. Claire went to Japan, the wizarding world, and works for mugglenet. My comment got read out on the show. It’s a small world after all. My next task…get on the show. Problem is, I need a decent recording programme for my iPad Air 2.

  • Lisa

    In a way, the ending of DH is a mirror to the ending of OotP. There are plenty of essays which point out similarities between the seven books and DH is often connected to OotP (I think it’s called ring theory or something).

    Both books end with a huge battle where kids face Death Eaters. In both books, Neville is the last one standing alongside Harry and being all brave and Gryffindorish. Ginny is almost tortured by Bellatrix in OotP and almost killed by her in DH. In both battles, Voldemort and Bellatrix are the last two fighters for the dark side. Harry sees Tonks getting knocked unconscious in book five and her dead body in book seven. So there are a lot of similarities except that DH is a darker version of the events in Order of the Phoenix. It’s like a circle coming to a close and it’s almost like everything that went wrong in OotP (the bad guys escaping for example) is put right in DH.

  • Super great that the re-read has come this far but saddening that it is coming to an end. Looking forward to the next Adventures of Alohomora!

    I wanted to just make a last “numbered chapter” mention of ring/circle theory. The host mentioned a good deal of call backs to previous books. Particularly I found the discussion of Hagrid picking Harry up to take him “home” very poignant as well. This is obviously a direct parallel to the first chapter of the first book (or what we later learn about those events from Hagrid). And I was just struck by a visual of the ring structure and if you were to draw it out, in reading that moment we are nearing the completion of the ring, drawing the circular line closer and closer towards the origin point. Harry’s sacrifice and Lily’s sacrifice are the other obvious convergence points. And where do we leave off (before the epilogue)? With Harry (and Ron and Hermione and all the portraits) and Dumbledore, not on Privet Drive but at Harry’s chosen home, Hogwarts. We close the ring of Harry’s story at home, two different kinds of homes both indelibly part of Harry’s path.

  • On the blood magic, or sacrifice magic, question, I always accepted it like Allison and found it rather beautiful that Harry followed his mother in that way. In terms of the protections Harry’s sacrifice affords the battlers of Hogwarts (because I think it really only applies to them against Voldemort), I just wanted to emphasize the section starting on pg. 730 (US) where it is very clear that Voldemort casts a silencing charm across the whole onlooking group, has a bit of a monologue, then Ron shouts out and it says that this made the charm break. Voldemort casts a “more powerful” silencing charm and Neville makes his move and then at the bottom of pg. 731 it states “there was an answering cheer from the crowd, whom Voldemort’s SIlencing Charm seemed unable to hold.” And then I was always convinced by Harry’s little speech on pg. 738: “You won’t be able to kill any of them ever again. Don’t you get it? I was ready to die to stop you from hurting these people – … I meant to, and that’s what did it. I’ve done what my mother did. They’re protected from you. Haven’t you noticed how none of the spells you put on them are binding? You can’t torture them. You can’t touch them…”
    BECAUSE (in my mind) they now have the blood protection that originally stopped Voldemort from touching Harry. And I propose that when V. killed the “horcrux” within Harry, he severed the connection with the blood magic that he brought into himself in the graveyard. What if that process was successful because there was already a bit of Voldemort within Harry and so Harry’s blood could more easily connect with Voldemort, because it was already partially familiar. Once the horcrux connection inside Harry was severed after the AK in the forest, so too was the blood connection in Voldemort because there was no longer any familiarity inside Harry to maintain it. In this case, if Voldemort had immediately gone up to Harry after they both came to in the forest, I think he wouldn’t be able to touch Harry without the pain like before.
    The fact that Ron and the others in the crowd are initially affected by Voldemort’s charm, instead of being wholly protected from any of his attempts, may be explained by the fact that their protection is ‘en masse’ as opposed to the targeted protection of one individual (as in Lily to Harry). It is interesting to consider that it is their willingness to continue to fight, to defy Voldemort and his evil that leads to them breaking the charm (and thus not being affected by Voldemort). Ron is shouting to defend Harry’s name and the crowd is rallying for Neville’s defiance. It is their CHOICE to continue the fight, in the face of Harry’s apparent demise, combined with Harry’s en masse sacrifice protection that keeps them safe from Voldemort. Super poignant stuff.

    • expecto-pootronum

      I like your “en masse” theory, it makes me wonder about the mechanics of magic. Is it delayed because it has so many subjects to work through? Does it have anything to do with the magical ability or intent of the caster? In this particular case, did it go through everyone one by one to lift the silencing charms or did it do everyone at once after the delay? Was anyone higher on the priority list?
      Somehow in my head I compare it to a giant server that keeps getting requests it has to deal with. I guess Kat’s IT-related similes are really catching on.

      • Kat

        HAHA! I didn’t know it was a thing to catch on to :)

  • I’m in Kat’s corner about the significance of the word “remorse.” The HP wiki provides this synopsis of the trio’s prior conversation about the possibility of putting one’s soul back together again after having made horcruxes:

    Ron Weasley: “Isn’t there any way of putting yourself back together?”
    Hermione Granger: “Yes, but it would be excruciatingly painful.”
    Harry: “Why? How do you do it?”
    Hermione Granger: “Remorse. You’ve got to really feel
    what you’ve done. There’s a footnote. Apparently the pain of it can
    destroy you. I can’t see Voldemort attempting it somehow, can you?”

    I feel this is a conscious word choice (by Harry and Jo) in the consideration of Voldemort’s possible redemption. I also thought that one of the reasons why Voldemort is so struck by this (as Kat emphasized) is because, in a sense, Harry is showing him a bit of compassion here. He’s not saying there’s no hope for you at all … your only fate is to die. He’s acknowledge that there is a path towards redemption if you are able to feel what you have done as Hermione says. It may be that part of Voldemort is stunned by this little bit of positive sentiment Harry shows even at the very end after the AK and all the evil, Harry is still able to show the most evil wizard ever a little bit of compassion and hope. It’s possible that Voldemort has totally lost the capacity to even recognize such things but I like to think that in the moments before he died, he at least took note of this curious and unknowable (to him) thing … thinking “What is this?”

    • SnapesManyButtons

      Exactly. I think Harry very specifically used the word “remorse” because he knew it was the only way left for Voldemort to restore his soul and I see it as part of his “Saving People Thing.” He lets Voldy know that he was wrong about being the Master of the Elder Wand, he was wrong about Snape, things are not as he believed and gave him the one tiny life-line that was left. Someone else may have just let it go, either figuring he didn’t deserve a whole soul or that Voldemort would never choose that option anyway. But Harry has to at least try, like when he went back for Draco, he had to give Voldemort this chance even if he knew he wouldn’t take it.

    • skgai

      I love your word choice of “compassion.” Voldemort has never experienced compassion and it’s something he does not comprehend. I don’t think it’s something he ever rejected, like love, but I think it’s something he literally has never experienced. This quality is unique to Voldemort so of course it would get a unique reaction from him.

      And Harry offering Voldemort a way out instead of being justly vindictive is why he is a true hero.

  • I know that the hero/baddie show down and info dump is par-for-the-course and so we should expect to get a good deal of exposition between Harry and Voldemort at the end but I couldn’t help wondering how Snape would feel about Harry exposing all that stuff about him. I presume that all the onlookers can hear what Voldemort and Harry are saying and so learn all about Snape as Dumbledore’s man, etc. What if word gets back to Snape’s portrait that everyone knows about his love for Lilly and his work for Dumbledore. How do you think he’d react?

    • ISeeThestrals

      The thing that I think would stick with the public is that he was Dumbledore’s man. The part where they learn, if they learn, how he was protecting them. I can see him gloating about it the way Snape had to Harry back when he said he saved their necks from Sirius Black. The portrait would probably, being his Snapey self, state they should be thanking him on bended knee, but possibly not being too harsh about it as this isn’t like class, this was such an important and risky mission for the whole of the wizarding world.
      As for Lily, I feel like Snape’s portrait would deny it if any student had the chance to go up there and question him about his love for her. The real Snape didn’t want that side of him known and I don’t see his portrait confessing that it’s true. He’d probably state it as Harry trying to throw Voldemort off guard. I could see him being worried that the students know this about him, but feel positive that it will pass like gossip when it comes to knowing who likes who.

      • Cool thoughts here. Honestly, I hadn’t really considered how much hearing that Snape was working for Dumbledore might affect some people. People like McGonagall may feel vindicated in her constant support of him but others like Hagrid or Ron may be really stunned. I’d love to hear the conversation between Harry and Ron when Harry explains everything about Snape to Ron and he is just totally indignant until he must face that Harry is right.

        • Lisa

          I’m gonna go on a limb here and say that Ron probably doesn’t care much about Snape one way or another. Certainly not enough to get indignant about it.

        • Wokanshutaiduo

          I don’t think McGonagall would feel vindicated at all! I think she’d just feel saddened and guilty about what she had believed all year, and what her final words to him had been.

          Ron I don’t think would really care very much, while Hagrid I think would accept it at face value and forgive him immediately. Maybe with a few “Oh, I always knew there was an explanation. Dumbledore trusted him, great man Dumbledore”s thrown in.

    • Slyvenpuffdor

      Maybe this is idealistic of me, but I think that Snape would feel immensely relieved. He had to keep his motives and his true thoughts secret for his whole life, it must grant him some solace to know that finally the truth is out.

      • skgai

        I don’t think Snape could ever find solace in this lifetime. Never. Ever.

      • Wokanshutaiduo

        I really don’t think so. Rather than relief I think he’d just be mortified that people know his deeply guarded secrets – though I absolutely agree that he’d be relieved that his affiliations are no longer secret and that everyone knows he didn’t really murder Albus.

        Again, I agree with @skgai:disqus (I swear I say this multiple times every week) and I don’t think Snape could ever find solace in this lifetime. I honestly don’t think the man even wanted to survive the war.

    • skgai

      Harry wants the whole world to understand Snape, Snape be damned. Harry is determined to reveal the best of Snape because he has truly forgiven him. If Snape were alive and saw everything Harry went through on this one day I think he wouldn’t argue. He might possibly quit teaching and become a hermit though, as perceived public shame would torment him.

    • Wokanshutaiduo

      I mentioned this on the Snape debate chapter, but I think that Snape would be pretty irritated and weary by the public nosing in on his private affairs. I don’t think he’d contradict Harry or lie/deny his feelings for Lily, but I think he’d likely say something biting and sarcastic about how it’s none of anybody’s business if they try to talk to him about it. I agree with skgai that he would likely quit teaching and go live a quiet lonely life somewhere else once Voldemort was defeated.

  • I was always struck by the Malfoys sitting in the corner after the final battle, amidst all the order members and students. They feel out of place, and they are a bit but there is still a place for them in the non-Voldemort world, hopefully with a slightly different perspective on life.

    • ISeeThestrals

      Talk about awkward huh.

    • Lisa

      They were still at Hogwarts when the battle was over? I thought they’d left but maybe that’s just movie contamination. So Narcissa just sat there watching her sister get killed? Sheesh, what a harpy!

      • ThatTimeRemusWaddiwasiedVoldy

        I think when Bellatrix is killed, Narcissa and Lucius were busy running through the battle trying to find Draco. But I wonder, if she had noticed Belatrix being taken down by Molly, would she have tried to help her? I sort of get the impression that by this point, Narcissa has totally accepted that this is the bed Bella made for herself and now she’s just going to have to lie in it. The Malfoys are done fighting for Voldemort; they are just trying to survive intact as a family unit by this point and Bellatrix wasn’t likely to ever drop the whole Death Eater thing.

        • Agreed

        • Lisa

          Well, Narcissa also made her bed with a Death Eater husband in it no less, what did she think would happen once Lucius screwed up and lost favor with Voldemort? Also, it’s one thing for her to disapprove of Bella’s life choices and quite another to be okay with her being killed by a blood traitor. I mean, despite her loyalty to Voldemort, Bellatrix has always tried to be there for Narcissa so being okay with Bella dying does make Narcissa come across as rather nasty to me. But she is probably supposed to be nasty anyway.

          • ThatTimeRemusWaddiwasiedVoldy

            I’m not sure I would say that Narcissa is okay with Bellatrix being killed, I just think that she’s just accepted it as inevitable. I think she has also come to realize that they’ve all made some pretty bad choices in aligning themselves with Voldemort. I don’t think this makes her a good person either, by any stretch of the imagination, but I do think it shows how strong her maternal bond is, despite being a terrible person.

          • SnapesManyButtons

            I doubt Narcissa thought Lucius would ever lose favor. They’d always had money, power and influence and Lucius certainly never seemed to think he could lose any of that. Plus by the time she found out what having a Death Eater husband really meant, it was too late for either of them to get away alive. I don’t think with all the chaos Narcissa would have even seen Bella’s duel. If she had, I think she’d have cared, but not more than she cared about finding Draco or keeping him safe.

        • HowAmIGoingToTranslateThis

          What should Narcissa have done to help Bellatrix? Narcissa has given her wand to Draco, and Lucius has been wandless since he had to give his wand to Voldemort. Apart from tackling anyone attacking her sister, Narcissa had few options to help her. And finding Draco – wherever he may be right now – is more important to her.

          • Wokanshutaiduo

            Now that you mention that, Narcissa and Lucius are an interesting parallel to James in this moment aren’t they? James was wandless but stood up against Voldemort in an effort to buy time for Harry and Lily. Both the Malfoys are wandless at this point as well but are running through the castle heedless of the deadly curses flying around all around them in a search for their son.

          • HowAmIGoingToTranslateThis

            I wonder if James had wanted to transform into his animagus form to attack Voldemort, it might have given him an advantage. Sirius was able to transform in Azkaban without his wand, so I guess James could have transformed wandless, too, if he had had the time.

  • SocksAreImportant

    Oh man I was laughing so hard at the discussion between Voldemort and Snape about plenty of fish in the sea. You guys crack me up.

  • SocksAreImportant

    The final battle is done so perfectly in the book in my opinion. Harry’s confrontation with Voldemort reminds me of Dumbledore’s confrontation in the department of mysteries in book 5. They both use the name Tom and in both situations Voldemort feels like he has the upper hand while Harry/Dumbledore is calm about the whole situation. Also a shout out to Snape in that Harry telling Voldemort that Snape was never his is one of my favorite moments for me. I

  • ThatTimeRemusWaddiwasiedVoldy

    I’m glad the hosts brought this up, because I also wondered what Voldemort saw, if anything, while unconscious. If he did have a similar experience to Harry, being in a state of limbo between life and death, I think it is possible he might have seen some impression of Harry/Harry’s soul, similar to the gross Voldy-baby Harry sees. It would be very different though, as Harry’s soul is whole and pure. Perhaps this image of Harry would appear as if formed by brilkiant white light, almost like a patronus. I don’t believe Voldemort’s experience would otherwise be anything like Harry’s- no Dumbledore, Kings Cross, etc. Like Harry, whatever he saw would be entirely inside his own head.

    • expecto-pootronum

      I would also say Voldemort didn’t have an experience like Harry’s – if you subscribe to the theory of King’s Cross being a near-death experience type thing and not an actual place Harry goes to, there’s no reason Voldemort would actually be there.
      I always thought Voldemort got knocked out due to the blood magic bond. Firing something as powerful as a killing curse at someone you’re tied to by blood sounds like it could have repercussions for you. In that case, maybe Voldy really was just plain old K.O.

      • ThatTimeRemusWaddiwasiedVoldy

        Yeah, I think that is entirely plausible as well, perhaps even more so. And really, it sort of makes sense that he wouldn’t be in the weird limbo place, because he hasn’t “died” like Harry has. He has lost the piece of soul tying him to Harry, but he is very much still alive on earth. Harry is only alive because he choses not to go “on”.

        • expecto-pootronum

          Good point! That makes me wonder – I haven’t seen the movie in quite some time; does movie Voldemort notice he’s lost another horcrux when he “kills” Harry? He should, and thereby have an inkling of what’s going on, right?

          • ThatTimeRemusWaddiwasiedVoldy

            Eh, I’ve only watched part 2 twice because reasons….but, from what I remember, the reaction is similar to the book, there doesn’t really seem to be one. Does Voldemort even realize he inadvertently made Harry a horcrux at this point? Because if not, then I don’t think there is any reason for him to feel that another piece of his soul has been destroyed. He didn’t feel anything when the other Horcruxes were destroyed.

          • expecto-pootronum

            Yeah, that’s what I mean; movie Voldemort notices horcruxes being destroyed for some reason (even though that goes against the whole point of them if you ask me). So even if he wasn’t aware of Harry’s pseudo-horcrux status, by movie logic, he should’ve noticed it was destroyed, right?
            I feel ya on the not watching the movie(s) very often. They’re not really my cup of tea either.

          • ThatTimeRemusWaddiwasiedVoldy

            Oh yeah, you’re right, I totally forgot, that’s why he does all those weird Voldy-screams. Ridiculous. Anyway yeah, there’s some continuity issues there then.

          • expecto-pootronum

            Dibs on Weird Voldy-Screams for a band name

          • ThatTimeRemusWaddiwasiedVoldy

            Ha! Please do, I’d buy that album.

          • SnapesManyButtons

            Thank you! I showed this to my daughter to prove I’m not the only one who takes random phrases and decides they’d make great band names!

          • Dibs on Newt and the Scamanders.

          • ThatTimeRemusWaddiwasiedVoldy

            I definitely have to allow some time between any rereads and watching the movies, or I take way too much issue with them. It’s hard to just enjoy the movies if the books are too fresh in my mind, and Dhp2 is one of the worst offenders to me. This movie watch should be thoroughly aggravating, haha.

      • skgai

        Voldemort’s soul-part has been unknowingly detached from his body. He would experience nothing as he has lost that part already. Voldemort simply blacks out briefly due to the Elder Wand probably having a mini identity crisis. The Elder Wand would never kill Harry unless Harry wanted it to. This was probably like a house-elf disobeying its master even though he/she knows it’s the right thing to do. Uniquely powerful magic was just performed.

        • expecto-pootronum

          Okay, the part of his soul attached to Harry is gone, but isn’t the blood connection still intact?
          I like your theory that it’s due to the Elder Wand, but I also like the image of Voldemort metaphorically running headlong into a wall of Blood Magic Shenanigans and getting knocked out.

          • skgai

            I think we can agree if Voldemort did see something it makes up our worst nightmares.

  • ThatTimeRemusWaddiwasiedVoldy

    Thanks for the mentions Alison and Rosie! I knew my comment would be too long to read on the show, so I really appreciate that so many people took the time to read it and found it interesting. Y’all are the best, thanks for letting me share my thoughts guys! Also, high five to Wokanshutaiduo for partnership in sillyness! Glad others found that amusing too.

  • ThatTimeRemusWaddiwasiedVoldy

    So my understanding of why Voldemort can’t properly cast spells against the Hogwarts fighters and Harry is that there are two very distinct effects taking place. I’ve never had trouble accepting that Harry’s intent to die was enough to bring the love protection spell into action, whoch is what keeps Voldemort from being able to properly harm Harry’s allies. To me this is made clear by Harry noting how none of Voldemorts spells on Neville and the crowd are binding.

    I don’t think this has anything to do with why Voldy can’t perform Crucio on Harry. I think this is entirely due to the fact that the Elder Wand will not work properly against its true master. While I like the idea of Harry being able to somehow throw off the curse or just not be able to feel the pain, I think that it is more logical that this is the wand itself recognizing that it is being used against the person to whom it has allegiance, and therfore simply can’t perform the curse as intended.

    The love protection in Harry’s blood from Lily has always seemed irrelevant to me at this point. To me, it has sort of just put Voldemort and Harry on equal footing once Voldemort took Harry’s blood.

    • Slyvenpuffdor

      I’m with you here, the idea of the blood magic suddenly expanding to hundreds of other people seems a bit far fetched.

  • ILoveLunaLoveGood

    I also wanted Harry to die… and Im a Hufflepuff…

    • ThatTimeRemusWaddiwasiedVoldy

      The funniest thing about this comment is that there is no elaboration. Such an awkwardly hilarious statement, like something Luna would say, only way darker :)

      • ILoveLunaLoveGood

        being accidentally funny is a curse and a gift 😀

        i stand by it though.

  • RunawayMuggle

    Now that we’ve come so close to the end of book 7 I just wanted to say thank you to all the Alohomorah hosts past and present for all that you’ve done. I’ve been listening since the beginning (has it really been 4 years?!) and hope to continue for years to come. After finishing this episode I went on to read the epilogue in preparation for next week and as I closed Deathly Hallows and placed it back on my shelf, I felt a little sad and nostalgic as I do after every re-read. However, this time was even more bittersweet because it’s been so much fun with all of you. I’ll never forget the strange looks I’ve gotten from laughing in public while I listened to discussions about deskpigs, the mandrake liberation front, and theories on Professor McGonagall’s relationship with Lee Jordan. Congratulations on making it all the way through to the end of Deathly Hallows and thank you once again for making every bitterly cold, blistering hot, soaking wet, uphill-both-ways-through-three-feet-of-snow walk to class enjoyable.

    P.S. I’d eat the deskpig. Bacon is bacon.

    • ThatTimeRemusWaddiwasiedVoldy

      Hear! Hear!
      Omg, what a brilliant moment for everyone to weigh in with final decisions about the desk-pig.
      I would not eat it, purely because I’d seriously be worried about the potential for it to turn back into wood prior to digestion.

      • SnapesManyButtons

        I’ve been here since Order of the Phoenix and I’ve really enjoyed the discussions and the amazing insights that the hosts and listeners have shared. I’m really glad it is going on, but I hate not having been able to discuss the first books in real time.

        Also, I wouldn’t eat the desk pig because I’m not sure if it’s truly made of pig or basically has the nutritional value of a desk.

        • Wokanshutaiduo

          I’ve been here intermittently since Order of the Phoenix but it was really a race to catch up in time for these last few chapters. I do feel sad I wasn’t here from the start, as there are so many old threads on the forums I’ve been trying to participate in but they’re so old that they’re dead!

          I would not eat the desk pig because I think there’s a high chance it would turn back into wood after a period of time. Food being an exception to Gamp’s law I highly doubt that you can transfigure a desk into a real pig with nutritional value. Add on that I don’t see that it’s possible to transfigure life into existence, again I don’t think you can transfigure a desk into a real living animal.

    • Of course I’d eat the Desk Pig – only now, the poor animal is an icon everything brilliant in the HP fandom. The real question is, would I eat the Restaurant at the End of the Universe’s suicidal GM pig? (No, I wouldn’t).

  • SnapesManyButtons

    Can someone please explain why they think Narcissa was protecting Harry when she said he was dead? I would love to hear your reasoning. I have read and re-read that passage and I just don’t see it. The touch is softer than he expected, but I see that as because he expected a man to touch him, probably kick him over or poke him harshly, not that it was a tender sort of soft touch. And her fast breathing says to me she is anxious rather than concerned or caring. Then when her nails pierce him I read that as a reflex action from her great relief that her son is alive when she had prepared herself to hear otherwise. If she meant to show gratitude, it should have been a comforting squeeze or a pat, but piercing him could well have caused Harry to flinch and reveal he is alive, so I don’t see it as a conscious act at all. Plus she doesn’t linger at all once she gets the information that Draco is alive, she clenches her hand and stands right up, as I see it, anxious to get to Draco while she still can. Even Harry believes she only wants to get back to the castle to find Draco. When we see her later in the book she is solely interested in finding Draco and shows no interest whatsoever in Harry or even whether Voldemort is defeated or not. Then the final time we see the Malfoys they are all three together but seemingly unconcerned about who around them has lived or died. I just don’t see any indication that Narcissa cared about anyone but Draco and her husband.

    It always fascinates me that things that seem so cut and dry to me are interpreted so differently by others. It is one thing I enjoy about this podcast and I really wish more people would go to the forums where we could talk about specific topics at length without being tied to the topics on the podcasts.

    • ISeeThestrals

      I too read Narcissa’s nails piercing him as a reflex action from her relief over Draco. I think it’s a natural physical response after worrying for so long. This is the first time I’ve heard it read as her way of thanking Harry. If she wanted to show gratitude, she could have softly said “Thank you” before lying to Voldemort.
      And I would say it’s the fact that she lied for Harry that it can be read that she’s protecting him, but perhaps more than that I feel like there might be this need to project redemption onto Narcissa. We know there’s a lack of kind Slytherins, and even though Snape got redeemed as not being so evil doesn’t mean it can be said for everyone. I can’t read it as Narcissa protecting Harry. She’s a mother who only has eyes for her own kid. Besides that, she never had a kind thought or word for Harry and several hours before this moment she was ready to have Draco identify him so they could hand him over to the Dark Lord.

    • ThatTimeRemusWaddiwasiedVoldy

      I guess by “protecting” him, we could simply be referring to the fact that she doesn’t give away that he’s alive to Voldemort? I couldn’t see it as protection in any other way though, because you do have a point with the language.

      The way I see it though, this is all just a barter to Narcissa. She is getting info on Draco in exchange for not revealing Harry. What strikes me is that she trusts Harry’s word. A less virtuous person would likely say Draco was alive, true or not, if they thought doing so would prolong their life. So why does she believe him? I think it speaks to how well everyone, not just his friends, really recognize that innate goodness in Harry. I don’t know that that’s why she believes him, or if really it is just her best option to go with it, but to me, the clenching of her hand and peircing nails is the physical reaction to the split second she struggles with the decision to trust him and lie. I mean, she is taking a huge risk here; she is already out of the good graces of this psycho who knows no mercy, not to mention is going to lie to him about possibly the worst thing she could, and he happens to be effing great at reading minds. Just so that she can get back to the castle to find Draco. It’s kind of insane. Mothers, man.

      • ThatTimeRemusWaddiwasiedVoldy

        Also, its this weird situation where Harry pretty much holds Narcissas life in his hands. If he reveals himself before she has a chance to get out of Voldemorts sights, she is so dead.

      • ISeeThestrals

        I feel like just hearing a confirmation that her son is alive is enough because it’s clearly what she wants to hear. She may be too worried to rationalize that Harry could be lying so when she hears something positive she’s willing to cling to it.

        • ThatTimeRemusWaddiwasiedVoldy

          Yeah, that’s a fair point. Probably more likely really.

    • Lisa

      I’ve heard the idea that Narcissa somehow redeemed herself in DH quite often. I don’t agree for the reasons you and everyone else listed, but I think we are supposed to have some sympathy for her character. It’s clear that she’s a part of Rowling’s Motherhood Trinity along with Lily and Molly and the books glorify motherhood so it follows that a woman can be redeemed at least partially if she proves herself to be a good mother. Narcissa chooses Draco over Voldemort and blood purity, and if you remember the Spinner’s End chapter this is what sets her aside from her sister who claims she would give her children to Voldemort for his service.

      So naturally some fans would pick up on this interpretation that motherhood=good, unmaternal=bad, and that leads to viewing Narcissa in a positive light even if her act wasn’t intended to help Harry in any way- that was just the biproduct of the whole thing.

      • expecto-pootronum

        I also agree with Narcissa’s actions not being redemption. I think what she does serves three purposes: a) reinforcing the Motherhood theme, b) showing the Slytherin trait of achieving your goals by any means necessary, and c) reminding the readers that Harry’s defeat of Voldemort didn’t come down to just him, but involved a whole host of other factors.

        On the glorification of motherhood in the whole series – am I the only one that thinks these women were sometimes “reduced” to their motherhood status? I don’t have children, so I’m well aware that people who do might have a totally different opinion, but a lot of the time it felt like their character was “The Mother” and didn’t encompass any other aspects of their personalities, ambitions, or lives. We see this a lot in all kinds of media: once someone becomes a mother, their existence suddenly revolves completely around their children, and leaves no room for any other parts of their complex personality.

        • Lisa

          YES on them being reduced to being mothers! This is so true. Take Lily and Molly for example. They were both members of the Order yet their most important contribution in defeating Voldemort’s regime is closely linked to them being mothers (and Lily is also important because she’s Snape’s love interest, of course). Not to mention the fact that the duel between Molly and Bella and Rowling’s comments after it clearly show what the author thinks of women who are not maternal. Obviously, this is her story and she can do whatever she wants with it but it doesn’t make for a very positive message in my opinion.

          • expecto-pootronum

            Great point! So not only do we have The Mother, but also The Anti-Mother, because not being maternal obviously means you’re a horrible person (see Umbridge).
            Sure, I’m generalizing quite a bit here, but as in all media, these characters send a clear message. I assume Rowling’s feelings both as a mother and a daughter came into play heavily, and I’m not faulting her for that. It’s just that this is such a pervasive trope to the point that it can be harmful. Just look at the backlash many young women (or any age, really) face when they decide not to have children.

        • Wokanshutaiduo

          Agree with both you and Lisa! I think Minerva and Hermione do balance out this bias a little bit though, Minerva as a badass that never had children, and Hermione although she does have children is still the complete opposite of Molly Weasley.

          • expecto-pootronum

            Good point, McGonagall does represent an exception to the Mother/Not Mother thing.
            Also, I think younger characters like Hermione, Ginny, or Luna don’t necessarily factor in to this particular concept. Luckily they’re young enough to be exempt from the Mother or Not Mother role (until, as you said, the epilogue).

          • QuasiQuantumQuaffle

            I don’t think that Rowling wanted to portray women as either maternal = good or not maternal = bad. But I think she wanted to point out how important mothers are and how strong their love is. Bellatrix and Umbrige are the women without love (especially Bella where it really is obsession not love) and they are really bad persons. Mc Gonagall on the other hand cares very much about her students and other people and shows that she is capable of love.

          • expecto-pootronum

            I agree that Rowling maybe didn’t mean to create the mother/non-mother binary. You make a good point about it not necessarily being motherhood, but love (which obviously fits in very well with the series’ central themes).
            However, as with everything else out there, we need to remember that media is not created in a vacuum. There’s always going to be social implications, and elements that might not have been included on purpose, but were reinforced by social norms and values. I think that the motherhood element is definitely one of these.a

      • SnapesManyButtons

        I can see giving Narcissa credit for putting her son above everything and being willing to lie to Voldemort for his sake. That is a positive thing. I just had never heard this scene interpreted as her trying to protect Harry or show him gratitude and I wondered where that came from.

        I believe Rowling has said she wanted the symmetry that Harry was saved by mothers at the beginning and at the end. Remember, though, her own mother had died before the first book came out and she has said they would have been very different books if that had not happened. The way the topic of Death is portrayed is often cited, but I imagine the topic of Motherhood would have been a result as well. We definitely need to suggest Motherhood as a topic for the upcoming podcasts.

        • ThatTimeRemusWaddiwasiedVoldy

          Definitely. I think Kat expressed a desire to do an episode all about women and mothers in the series so I think it’s on their minds.

    • skgai

      Narcissa doesn’t even protect Harry. She knows that the only way to save Draco is to come to Hogwarts as a “conquering army.” Otherwise Voldemort will just kill everyone. She is doing this solely to save Draco’s life. Harry’s safety is simply a byproduct. She does not care at all.

    • Wokanshutaiduo

      You have no idea how much it frustrates me that more readers sympathise with Narcissa than Snape. Narcissa is not a character who is redeemed – she, like Molly Weasley, is another character that embodies motherhood and how love for your child can make you do things you would otherwise never do.

  • DisKid

    haha I love the “voldefetti” line. Trivia for you though: they originally did do Voldemort dying like he did in the books. There’s even a photo still from the original footage of Harry looking over Voldemort’s dead body. However, they decided to reshoot it after Osama Bin Laden’s death. You can call it a PR reshoot.

    Speaking of the movie, I cheered so much when Bellatrix Lestrange died. I was so happy when I read this chapter and she was killed. I didn’t care how she died, I just wanted her dead. I’ve always disliked Bellatrix Lestrange more than Voldemort because she is more sadistic than him. Did anybody else feel like this?

    Also, what do you all think happened with the sorting hat? We know it survived the fire and we can assume it was probably repaired. How do you guys think they repaired this hat? Would a simple “reparo” really do it with a hat as magical as this? Did the founders leave behind a secret way to repair it in case it is ever in need of repair? Or is a powerful object like the sorting hat going to be brought down by a little fire? Maybe a simple “reparo” really did do it cause it was too powerful to destroy so easily!

    • expecto-pootronum

      I’d say Harry’s conversation with Albus in the epilogue makes it sound like the Sorting Hat is still around. Personally I’d find it cool if they came up with another method of sorting, or just let the students choose themselves, or maybe even (gasp) got rid of the houses entirely…?

      • DisKid

        No more house?? Awww that would make me sad!

        • expecto-pootronum

          But think of the possibilities…! 😀

        • Wokanshutaiduo

          That would honestly make me very happy. No houses FTW

          • HowAmIGoingToTranslateThis

            there are SO many options for dividing students into groups of a teachable size, or for making sure they have ideals and idols to identify with. I say send the Sorting Hat on tour with a band and let it sing on stage every day! But keep it away from future first-years.

    • Slyvenpuffdor

      I did HP a weird way (saw all the movies until 7pt1, read books 1-6, saw 7pt2, read 7), so to me the cinematic universe is what I experienced first. While I do wish they included some of the dialogue between Harry and Voldemort in the movie, I think Voldemort disintegrating is a really good visual for the movie. The movie and book versions represent different meanings right? In the book we see the Human Tom Riddle, collapsed on the ground, we are reminded that this was just a man. In the movie, we see the prime evil Voldemort, his souls fractured beyond repair, the only things tethering him to life and his body, and when those are gone he loses his substance, and just, well, disintegrates. Both are good, I think, but I think from a cinematic standpoint (not necessarily a meaning or metaphor standpoint) that they did the right thing in the movie (but again I’m slightly biased).

      Maybe Harry repaired the sorting hat with the elder wand as well?

      • skgai

        Love this! People hate adapted movies because they can’t except it can never, ever be the book. You have to go in with a clean slate. I actually watch movie 1, then read Book 1, then watched movie 2, read book 2, etc. etc. I was a very patient reader.

      • HowAmIGoingToTranslateThis

        if the sorting hat was damaged, and repairing it magically is possible and regarded as neccessary, I’m fine with Harry using the elder wand for that purpose. But if a hat is important enough to use the “wand that should be hidden and never used again”, then I’ve got a few other points on my list of uses for an unbeatable wand. There are quite a few severely injured persons around who might benefit from healing spells with a wand that is capable of mending things that were said to be beyond repair.

        • Slyvenpuffdor

          I would like to think that Harry did medic duties after the battle as well.

    • Wokanshutaiduo

      Having more hatred for Bellatrix than Voldemort is a very common feeling. I for one hate both Bellatrix and Umbridge more than Voldemort – for Voldemort at most I have distaste and a fair bit of pity and horror.

      The difference is that those women are such human, real evil – and Voldemort is such overblown inhuman evil that I can’t even hate him!

      • ThatTimeRemusWaddiwasiedVoldy

        That’s a really great point, because I’ve always wondered why I don’t have strong feelings of loathing towards Voldemort the way I do Umbridge. And I think you’re right, it’s because Voldy has gone so far down the path of evil that he almost becomes more of a scary monster figure than just a terrible dude. It also helps that we have some understanding of his childhood and where he came from, so it is hard to loathe him as much if we feel a bit of pity for him. Umbridge on the other hand, we have no idea why she is such a terrible excuse for a human being (in the books strictly speaking, prior to the release of her bio on Pottermore), or what experiences made her the way she is. So to our minds she is just a bitch for no reason.

  • Slyvenpuffdor

    Although such gigantic chapter, I only have a few thoughts.
    Maybe I’m beating a dead horse here, but I don’t really think Harry’s life would have been better had he known “the secrets” all along. I think a lot of people are quick to forget that Harry, for most of this series, is a child. A child with an already enormous burden placed on him (almost, literally, the weight of the world). A child that has come from a home of pain and abuse as an orphan. In an ideal world, where Dumbledore would have been able to plan his own death more thoroughly, I think he would have let Harry in on a few things, or at least entrusted Snape to inform harry more appropriately. In OotP, Dumbledore says (and this may just be a movieism is please correct me) that he didn’t want to cause Harry any more pain. Which is undoubtedly what this information would have done. “Yes hello 15 year old Harry there’s this prophecy thing and you know you kind of have to die,” I can’t see Harry taking that well, and even if he did, that puts even more emotional stress on Harry, A CHILD! Could the revelation have been better thought out? Sure. More gracefully executed? Absolutely. But I think Harry got the right information at exactly the time he could handle it best.

    Also a small thought on whether or not Voldemort went to his own “King’s Cross.” I don’t think so. This isn’t the same type of magic-rebound as Voldemort first experienced with Harry as a baby. Maybe kind of the same, but I think Harry is in a unique position as the true host of his blood, and the specific interaction between he and Voldemort (as victim and attacker, respectfully) is what grants Harry access into this limbo-state. I’d imagine Voldemort’s reaction was sort of like hitting a large metal object with a metal bat, he gets a kickback, but it’s not deadly.

    • skgai

      This re-read has made me realize your point about Harry knowing everything earlier. I was on the other side of that for the longest time, but on this re-read I finally understand Dumbledore’s plan, and although not perfect, was as good as one could hope for. I have completely changed my opinion of Dumbledore.

      • Slyvenpuffdor

        Glad I could “convert” you! 😛 I’m a big Dumbledore sympathizer obviously. It’s not that his actions are always excusable or morally righteous, but they’re human, he’s a human character.

    • Soc.forRescueofVanishedAnimals

      I very much agree with you about the timing of Dumbledore’s revelations to Harry. Not only was he concerned about increasing the burden on Harry, he was also trying to preserve, to the extent possible, Harry’s agency in this whole matter. If Harry had been told early on that the end game was death, the knowledge would have been oppressive, and he would have felt like he was being pushed one step closer to death at every point along the way. Whereas believing that he had a chance to survive empowered him and gave him the will to pursue the Horcruxes. So I think Dumbledore was not only trying to protect him as a child, but also trying to give him the freedom to grow first, and the chance to eventually accept the need for his death with more maturity and dignity as a result.

      • Slyvenpuffdor

        A brilliant point I don’t think I had articulated! I think Dumbledore was concerned with Harry’s willingness to participate in the whole thing. Although perhaps not the real Dumbledore, his final act is giving Harry a choice at King’s Cross.

        • Soc.forRescueofVanishedAnimals

          Some of my favorite Harry-Dumbledore moments are in Half-Blood Prince, when Dumbledore is holding Harry to a more mature standard and asking him to step up and take on new types of tasks like obtaining the memory from Slughorn. Rather than fawning over Harry, Dumbledore kicks his butt a little and treats him like an accountable adult, and I think that’s also part of what Dunbledore wanted Harry to learn before he learned the ultimate thing.

  • Anna_

    Loved the discussion on this episode! On the “girl power” teamwork I agree that Hermione, Luna and Ginny with their different powers and abilities complement each other quite well. However, to me that does raise the question of how Molly could be more powerful than all three of them put together. I could buy Minerva McGonagall being that powerful but Molly going from household duties to defeating a very powerful and high ranking Death Eater did not make much sense. I guess it was all about her love as a mother but it is still a bit of a stretch. Especially since she doesn’t appear to have any scratch or bruise on her.

    This chapter is also the first time we see Voldemort showing anger and emotion about a person and not just about a thing. When he was angry before it was always about a Horcrux being destroyed or stolen or Harry escaping, but this time it was actually about another human being and I found that, er, touching? Too little too late, though as he’s still a thoroughly black character.

    • Lisa

      Re Molly: I agree and this is why I lol’d at this Pottermore comment from Remus Lupin’s biography: “Having survived numerous encounters with Death Eaters and fought his way skillfully and bravely out of many tight corners, Remus Lupin met his end at the hands of Antonin Dolohov, one of the longest-serving, most devoted and sadistic of all Voldemort’s Death Eaters. Remus was no longer in prime fighting condition when he rushed to join the fight. Months of inactivity, using mostly spells of concealment and protection, had blunted his duelling capabilities, and when he ran up against a dueller of Dolohov’s skill, now battle-hardened after months of killing and maiming, his reactions were too slow.”

      So Lupin, who’ve seen in battle many times, couldn’t defeat Dolohov because of “months of inactivity” yet Molly who’s never been in battle for all we know could defeat Bella? It must be the power of a mother’s love or something like that.

      The scene where Voldemort screams for Bella was priceless! A perfect ending to their story arc.

      • ThatTimeRemusWaddiwasiedVoldy

        I personally hate that Lupin gets killed because he’s “out of practice”. I call b.s. on that one. I much prefer to think that he just got beat, not because he was a weaker dueler at the time, but because, I dunno, you win some and you lose some, I suppose. For all we know, Lupin could have tried to throw up a shield charm to protect a student, and Dolohov seized the opportunity while he was distracted.

        As far as Molly goes, I don’t think that this is the surprise appearance of some great duelling skill on her part, but I also think that it is entirely possible that she has more talent then she is given credit for. I don’t think beating Bellatrix here necessarilly means that she is more skilled than Bella, or that she could beat her on any given day. To me it is just a matter of the right circumstances. Molly is being fueled by grief and rage, and is utterly and completely focused on taking down the woman who dares to hurt her children. Bellatrix on the other hand, clearly underestimates the ferocity of Molly’s attack, taunting and provoking her, trying to play mind games rather than focusing on the duel itself. I see this as the source of Bellatrix’s downfall, she was simply overconfident, and Molly was able to seize her moment.

        • Lisa

          Yeah I agree that it was due to motherly love and not necessarily a tremendous duelling skill. I’m not saying Molly’s a weak witch, I’m sure she’s average or above average. But I think the thematic importance disappears if it becomes a case of a strong witch defeating a weaker one. The importance of maternal love is much better emphasized if Molly wins against someone who probably would have beaten her in other circumstances.

          I like your suggestion for Lupin as well. It’s ridiculous to say he was out of practice considering that he’s been present in all battles since OotP.

        • Wokanshutaiduo

          I agree with you on calling BS on why Moony lost against Dolohov.

          With Molly and Bellatrix, I don’t think she won so much because she was TALENTED, as because Bellatrix grossly underestimated her and got far too cocky. There is a very intentional parallel in this scene to Sirius’ death, and the small instant when Harry knows whats’s about to happen before it does.

    • Wokanshutaiduo

      Yes! So much great girl power in this chapter and this series, but I am not really a fan of the Molly Weasley arc.

  • ThatTimeRemusWaddiwasiedVoldy

    I never thought that the appearance of the centaurs here was odd. We know how they feel about involving themselves with the affairs of humans, it kind of makes sense that they would be watching events unfold from the forest. I wonder now though, if their own brand of prophecy is playing a role here? On first reads I thought Hagrid calling them cowards over Harry’s death was what motivated to eventually join the battle, but it has since occured to me that perhaps they knew exactly what they were doing, just biding their time. It is possible that they foresaw Harry’s death and had some knowledge of it being necessary to Voldemort’s defeat. So maybe they were waiting for the confirmation of Harry’s sacrifice, thinking that then would be the moment when action on their part would be of most use. It would be rather centaurish of them.

    • skgai

      I think the book’s themes implies that if you follow prophecies they become self-fulfilling. The centaurs think they know how this will end, but they’ve just been proven wrong (although actually correct). However, the point is, you need to stand up and fight for what’s right not what a prophecy or star lineup says. Also, where the hell of the Merpeople? Everyone else we’ve met is fighting. What’s their deal?

      • ThatTimeRemusWaddiwasiedVoldy

        I don’t think the Centaurs are right to stay out of the fight, but I don’t think Hagrid guilt tripping them is really enough to convince them to fight either. I think they have their own, albeit faulty ethics-wise, way of judging situations and their own involvement.

        I would have loved to see merpeople fighting! I guess they are confined to the lake though, and we never see any action taking place there during the battle., which I think is a shame. As mentioned in a couple episodes previous, we could have gotten some fantastic imagery of the Giant squid and merpeople dragging DEs into the water. Sigh…

  • SpinnersEnd

    I had always thought that the blood protection Harry imparted on Hogwarts was protection against Voldemort’s cause, not just Voldemort himself. Because all of the Death Eaters are tied so closely to Voldemort (with their Dark Marks), the protection Harry gave them all by dying extends to the Death Eaters as well, because they’re intent on harming them in Voldemort’s name. This is what accounts for the minimal injuries during the remaining battle and the curses not holding.

    That being said, I also think the extends so far as to encompass people/beings who have simply sworn loyalty to Voldemort and do not have Dark Marks (i.e. Fenrir Greyback), though not as strongly, since their ties to the Dark Lord are less permanent.

    • Wokanshutaiduo

      Which is exactly why I’m not a fan of this chapter. Deux ex machina anyone?

      • SpinnersEnd

        Precisely.

  • Witherwings

    On the subject of girl power: I love that Molly is the end of Bella. To me, it was a lovely and significant testament to the strength of REAL women.

    We females are pressured into being defined by their looks, skills, and accomplishments. From the time we are teenagers, we learn to scrape for our love and acceptance by using our accomplishments, looks or popularity to generate power and self-worth. I see Bellatrix as the embodiment of those qualities: she was smart, skilled, accomplished, rich, and good looking- but she dedicated her life to committing horrific acts of violence and perpetuating the illusion that she was superior to others. What a surprise that when you put together all of the qualities women are supposed to have into one person, you get someone as unpleasant as Bellatrix!

    Molly, on the other hand, who was poor, overweight, and a stay-at-home-mom who lacked a “career”, automatically has the odds stacked against her because of how she looks, where she lives, and her seemingly short list of awards. Despite her lack of recognition, Molly has consistently made choices out of love for her family and the opposition of Dark Forces. I highly doubt that Bellatrix would see a poor, overweight witch like Molly as someone who would posses magic to compete with her own. And when Bella arrogantly jeers at Molly, the same way so many of us, regardless of our gender, are underestimated by those who view us with stereotypes, well- she pays for it.

    I cannot stop myself from letting out an audible “YES!!” Each time I read this section- for it’s not just Molly who wins here, but every woman who doesn’t fit in the tiny box of what our society deems “worthy” of respect and equality.

  • SlothPatronus

    In regards to the Blood Charm, there are some things that do and dont add up. If the charm truly works to provide protection to everyone in the castle against Voldemort, then fine we can go with that. However if we bring it back to the beginning when James sacrificed himself for Lily AND Harry then why were both not protected in this moment? Has this ever been discussed? First time commenter and i picked up the podcast series just recently and finally caught up. You guys are awesome!

    • expecto-pootronum

      That’s a really good point. I guess it comes down to Lily actively pleading with Voldemort to take her instead of Harry? Seems like a plot hole to me too; I’m sure that James would’ve done exactly the same if he’d had the chance to speak before being killed.
      (And hurray for first time commenting! I also just recently started listening. This was the first episode I actually waited for.)

    • skgai

      JKR has answered this.

      From something I can’t remember, but this is the actual quote:

      “ES: This is one of my burning questions since the third book – why did Voldemort offer Lily so many chances to live? Would he actually have let her live?

      JKR: Mhm.

      ES: Why?

      JKR: [silence] Can’t tell you. But he did offer; you’re absolutely right. Don’t you want to ask me why James’s death didn’t protect Lily and Harry? There’s your answer – you’ve just answered your own question – because she could have lived – and chose to die. James was going to be killed anyway. Do you see what I mean? I’m not saying James wasn’t ready to; he died trying to protect his family, but he was going to be murdered anyway. He had no – he wasn’t given a choice, so he rushed into it in a kind of animal way. I think there are distinctions in courage. James was immensely brave. But the caliber of Lily’s bravery was, I think in this instance, higher because she could have saved herself. Now any mother, any normal mother would have done what Lily did. So in that sense, her courage too was of an animal quality but she was given time to choose. James wasn’t. It’s like an intruder entering your house, isn’t it? You would instinctively rush them. But if in cold blood you were told, “Get out of the way,” you know, what would you do? I mean, I don’t think any mother would stand aside from their child. But does that answer it? She did very consciously lay down her life. She had a clear choice.

      ES: And James didn’t.

      JKR: Did he clearly die to try and protect Harry specifically given a clear choice? No. It’s a subtle distinction and there’s slightly more to it than that but that’s most of the answer.”

      • skgai

        Now this seems to be very problematic because what choice does Voldemort give Harry? Harry has a choice to accept death or keep running, but Voldemort was always going to kill him. Yes. This is a major plot hole and I think that’s why this chapter is one of her weakest. She clearly wrote this chapter all the way back in 1996 and didn’t change much, if any of it.

        • ThatTimeRemusWaddiwasiedVoldy

          Maybe I’m not understanding your explanation, but I don’t see this as a plot hole. Sure, Voldemort was going to continue trying to kill Harry, but it wasn’t definite that he’d succeed. Who knows, Harry could have lived in hiding, on the run with the invisibility cloak, for the rest of his life. I think the point is that Harry still was given a choice to try and save himself, or sacrifice himself to save others and he chose sacrifice. The opportunity to run was there and he didn’t take it.

          • skgai

            But James had that same choice. He could have run or sacrificed himself to try and save others. The point JKR is making is that Voldemort didn’t give James the choice. James had a choice, but Voldemort didn’t give it to him. Harry has a choice, but not one Voldemort gives him.

          • ThatTimeRemusWaddiwasiedVoldy

            Ah I see what you’re saying. Voldemort doesn’t offer up running away as an option for Harry to save himself, so you’re right, the choice isn’t really the same here as with Lily. I would argue that the distinction then lies in how it is setup. Voldemort gives Harry a full hour in which to decide to show himself, or Voldemort himself will enter the fight and kill everyone. Harry is given time and space to conciously decide that he is going to die at that moment, rather than run for it. I think that is what makes his sacrifice more akin to Lily’s rather than James. For James , it’s just the split second reaction. The way I’ve come to understand it is that it happened so quickly for James that the fact he had a choice hadn’t even formed in his mind. It was just gut instinct, I don’t think he even considered the fact of his own death. He did seem to think he could somehow “hold off” Voldemort, while wandless, which is absurd. Like Jo said, I think the distinctions are subtle and there seems to be more going on with this whole love protection thing than what we are given by the text.

          • skgai

            This is the best explanation I’ve heard. But I still think it’s pretty weak on Jo’s part.

          • ThatTimeRemusWaddiwasiedVoldy

            I agree with you there, I think she could have fleshed out this magic better. This seems like the sort of thing we shouldn’t be left questioning by the end of the series, given the huge role it plays.

  • skgai

    I love these books and “Deathly Hallows” in particular, but this chapter is a mess. Narcissa and Molly are given next-to-no setup for their actions. It’s so unlike JKR to not set things up properly. She seems to have clearly written this chapter in 1996 and then not edited it much. We get a single line of Narcissa’s emotional state in “The Dark Lord Ascending” and that’s it. A single line. Not enough build up. And Molly gets absolutely nothing. Not even a throw away line at any point in the series where we learn she has great battle skills. I can understand if she’s taking out low-level Death Eaters, but Bellatrix has been built-up as Superwitch. I never for an instant buy the moment where Molly kills Bellatrix. It seems only to fulfill JKR’s idea that mothers are better than non-mothers. There’s no valid reason as to how Molly could be a better dueler than Bellatrix. Maybe Arthur should be a stay-at-home dad if Molly is this good. I mean, this is like this worst moment in the whole series tucked in the final chapter. It has the great line, but even that comes out of left field. We have a whole book where Ron says “effing” yet suddenly Molly can bust out “bitch.” It doesn’t match the tone JKR has set. (I personally would love a book set completely to the “bitch” tone, but I know that’s a pipe dream).

    And as has been pointed out, the blood protection doesn’t make complete sense.

    Plus, Harry is running around invisible for nearly the whole chapter. I’m sure the movie writer grabbed his red pen instantaneously while reading that.

    Neville works. He was properly built up. The dialogue is great. Voldemort’s demise is perfect. And then Harry doesn’t destroy the Elder Wand. Huh?!? This has to be setup to some other story because the movie ending makes so much freaking sense if Harry doesn’t want the wand to enter someone else’s hand. I guess, in summary, this is an uneven chapter that both satisfies and disappoints.

    • ThatTimeRemusWaddiwasiedVoldy

      I’m with you on the Elder wand bit. I’ve mentioned this elsewhere but it seems rather reckless to me that Harry expects to die a natural death and have the wands power be broken that way, when he intends to become an Auror later on. Sure that isn’t made definitive in the books, but if we consider Pottermore canon, well… Harry becomes an Auror, and Aurors don’t exactly have nice, safe, desk jobs.

      As far as the switch in tone we see from Molly, I actually find this completely believable. My grandparents were that way. Getting caught swearing around them was definitely met with a cuff upside the head or a lecture, but get a couple glasses of wine in them and kids out of hearing range (or so they thought..) and oh my, the floodgates would open.

      • Wokanshutaiduo

        The swearing was out of character for me because if Molly is able to open the floodgates in moments like this, I don’t see Ron censoring himself when Molly isn’t around.

        • ThatTimeRemusWaddiwasiedVoldy

          I can’t remember where I read it, but wasn’t it somewhere that Jo initially intended for Ron to swear more but it didn’t make it through the editing, being for children and all, at least in the earlier books.

          • Wokanshutaiduo

            I just don’t think that ‘bitch’ is any better than ‘Merlins saggy left ballsack” which was cut off, or “bastard” which I presume is what Ron was trying to say in one of the earlier books about Snape. There’s a whole new racial slur created and thrown around by the dark side in this book! I just find the editing choices here very odd.

          • ThatTimeRemusWaddiwasiedVoldy

            Yeah, I’m not exactly sure how bitch managed to get through but things like ballsack didn’t. I wonder if that was just one that Jo put her foot down on. Also, maybe the fact that she already used the word bitch way back in Prisoner had something to do with it. It was in different context, referring to actual female dogs, but it definitely still carried the weight of insult.

    • MartinMiggs

      if you could just destroy the wand then Dumbledore would’ve done so himself

      • skgai

        Dumbledore was still obssessed by the idea of uniting the Hallows as evidenced by him wearing the ring. No matter how much he told himself it would be right to destroy the wand he never could. It’s like finding the Holy Grail. It’s so historically important you couldn’t just destroy it.

        • MartinMiggs

          no he had moved past that already but he had a desire to see his family again. He kept the wand to “tame” it and to prevent dangerous people from having it. Also why wouldn’t he just destroy the wand when he planned to have Snape kill him? It would make much more sense to just snap the wand at that point

          • daveybjones999 .

            I think that an argument could be made that Dumbledore just didn’t think that he could snap the wand in two with his bare hands so didn’t even try. Sometimes solutions to problems end up being incredibly easy and simple, but because sometimes people get it in their heads that the solution to a problem has to be complex and really thought out so they immediately discard the simple solution without even trying it because it can’t possible work.

          • skgai

            We have vastly different interpretations of Dumbledore. It just comes down to that.

  • badonkaTonks

    In regards to the question that was asked about why Voldermort lied about Harry being killed while trying to save himself. I liked the hosts reply but I also think it was about taking away the hope from the people who remained in castle. Harry was the burning flame which sparked something inside each of them and drove them to want to fight (sorry about the near hunger games parallel). Voldermort needed to extinguish that flame and take away their hope that they could win by attempting to make them think that Harry had lost it and tried to make a run for it. It was he last chance effort to break their spirits so they would not have any fight left in them. He thought that if they think Harry had lost all hope and will to fight, they would think who can save us now, probably no one so we should just give in.

    • ThatTimeRemusWaddiwasiedVoldy

      Yes times 100 here. I too, think Voldemort was going for the complete demoralization of those left fighting. I think what he didn’t realize however, is that while Harry may have been something of a rallying point, he wasn’t the thing that everyone in Hogwarts was fighting for. They fought because they didn’t desire the world that Voldemort and his DEs were trying to build. They fought because they would rather die than let Voldemort rule, and that remains true whether Harry lives or not.

      • badonkaTonks

        Totally agree with you, as per usual Voldermort failing to think it all the way through. Harry of course was the catalyst that sparked their desire for change and fight, but at this point these people had enough of his rule and would have continued to fight. Harry gave them the hope for a better world but they were going to make it happen with or with out him.

  • Witherwings

    I love that Molly is the end of Bella. To me, it was a lovely and significant testament to the strength of REAL women.
    We females are pressured into being defined by our looks, skills, and accomplishments. From the time we are teenagers, we learn to scrape for our love and acceptance by using our accomplishments, looks or popularity to generate power and self-worth. I see Bellatrix as the embodiment of those qualities: she was smart, skilled, accomplished, rich, and good looking- but she dedicated her life to committing horrific acts of violence and perpetuating the illusion that she was superior to others. What a surprise that when you put together all of the qualities women are supposed to have into one person, you get someone as unpleasant as Bellatrix!
    Molly, on the other hand, who was poor, overweight, and a stay-at-home-mom who lacked a “career”, automatically has the odds stacked against her because of how she looks, where she lives, and her seemingly short list of awards. Despite her lack of recognition, Molly consistently made choices out of love for her family and the opposition of Dark Forces. I highly doubt that Bellatrix would see a poor, overweight witch like Molly as someone who would posses magic to compete with her own. And when Bella arrogantly jeers at Molly, the same way so many of us, regardless of our gender, are underestimated by those who view us with stereotypes, well- she pays for it.
    I cannot stop myself from letting out an audible “YES!!” Each time I read this section- for it’s not just Molly who wins here, but every woman who doesn’t fit in the tiny box of what our society deems “worthy” of respect and equality.

    • Lisa

      But the pressure on women to become to mothers or be maternal and nurturing is much greater than the pressure on them to be pretty or rich (the rich one is basically non-existent at least where I live). It’s an interesting view you have of the duel, I’ve never associated Bellatrix with the pressure put on women to be all that. I agree to a certain extent, but like I said I think the pressure on women to be nurturing is also a nasty cultural stereotype and this duel just enforces that, in my view.

      Also, Bellatrix was arrogant and mocking towards anyone who took her on, whereas Molly has been shown previously to have a nasty attitude towards other women, specifically against Fleur in HBP but towards Hermione in GoF (because of Rita’s rumours). I think there are plenty of positive sides to Molly but I just don’t see her as a good role model. Bellatrix was certainly never supposed to be a role model so the reader can just take her as she is (or leave her).

      • Wokanshutaiduo

        I agree, I definitely don’t see Molly as a good role model. I do cheer at her line just before she kills Bellatrix, but personally would have taken greater pleasure in Neville taking her down. Molly is a good example of a nurturing ‘traditional’ mother figure who also has a badass side, but she is by no means a perfect mother or a strong female role model.

        • HowAmIGoingToTranslateThis

          In my definition of feminism, a feminist character does not have to be a strong female role model. Books or movies with feminist messages do feature women* with all kinds of traits, and in that regard Jo is doing a great job with the HP series.

          • ThatTimeRemusWaddiwasiedVoldy

            Yes, Thank you! Feminism isn’t about taking one type of woman and upholding that as what all other women should strive to be. It is about a woman right to choose what she WANTS to be, and not be judged for it or told she can’t. So a little girl wants to be a badass warrior, awesome! Another wants to be a badass mother, thats awesome too! The whole point is to respect and find worth and value in whatever role a woman chooses to fill, so long as it doesn’t involve harming others. Obviously, a female serial killer shouldn’t be allowed to roam free, cuz FEMINISM, but you get what I mean. Who are we to say what “kind” of woman can and can’t be a role-model? Or what kind of mother is “perfect”. That is distructive thinking. While she has her flaws, Molly is a devoted, loving mother, who has a wonderfully loving relationship with her husband, and has managed to raise seven fantastic kids (even if Percy is a prat), while keeping the household running despite not having much in in the way of financial resources. Plus, like so many others, she accepts the risk and joins the Order to fight against evil. So tell me exactly why she can’t be a strong female role-model? Sure, not every woman wants to be a Molly Weasley, but there are plenty who do and are, and that is something to be celebrated in its own right. Bellatrix is the only non-suitable role-model here, and it has nothing to do with being a mother or not. It’s because she is totally cool with killing people based on prejudicial beliefs.

          • HowAmIGoingToTranslateThis

            When Molly has trouble accepting Fleur and is mean to Hermione based on Rita’s lies, when she insists on cutting Charlie’s hair although he doesn’t want her to, when she fights with Sirius and tries to hit him where it hurts, when she tries to keep the trio from planning their mission – these are her flaws. We can critizise her for them and point out why she’s wrong in those cases. But Molly is also capable of changing her opinion. So she needs to have some flaws that she can overcome to be a fully developed character.

          • ThatTimeRemusWaddiwasiedVoldy

            Exactly, there are so many times when we can disagree with the things Molly does, but it is incredibly unrealistic to expect a role model to be a perfect example of a perfectly upstanding human being. No one is perfect that way. To me, when we choose the people we look up to, it is because they embody specific traits that we value personally. I don’t exactly hope to be like Molly in a lot of ways, but I still love her as a character, and I certainly wouldn’t question it if someone else claimed her as a role model.

          • Lisa

            “Feminism isn’t about taking one type of woman and upholding that as what all other women should strive to be. ” which is what I feel Rowling is doing with that duel. I don’t have a problem with Molly at all or her choices. It’s not what I would do but there are plenty of jobs I wouldn’t do. I just dislike that she’s shoved down my throat as the ideal mother or perfect woman, both in the books and in Rowling’s interviews.

          • ThatTimeRemusWaddiwasiedVoldy

            I guess I just never saw what you’re saying about Molly being upheld as a perfect woman or mother. In this duel particularly, of course she seems to be glorified in a certain sense, but that is because she is placed opposite Bellatrix, who we know to be terrible in so many ways. By comparison Molly is a saint. However, when we look at Molly as compared to the other “good” female characters, I don’t think she is shown to be held in any higher regard, or as being “perfect” by comparison. She, like others, has her faults and her strengths.

            I also have just never read into anything Jo has said on the matter as forcing upon us this idea that we should view Molly as perfect. Most of what I’ve seen has seemed to be in response to criticism that Molly was a poor example of feminist ideals, resulting in Jo having to explain how Molly does have this strength of character that isn’t anti-feminist in the least. Thinking about it now though, I can see how those things might inform the perspective you have, and I think yours is a fair point.

          • expecto-pootronum

            Absolutely agree with you here. I think the problem is maybe less about the choices Molly or Bellatrix make, or their personalities, and more about the archetypes they fall into.
            When viewed in the context of the battle, Molly’s moment of badass is great. But once we see it in a sociological context, it sends a clear message of what type of people are “better”. The roles that Molly and Bellatrix (and most other adult women in the series) occupy often just happen to coincide with and thus reinforce outdated social values.

          • Wokanshutaiduo

            Wow this thread has blown up! I don’t disagree with what you all have said in your comments, but I think Lisa has been able to say what I wanted to say more eloquently.

            I definitely agree that women choosing to be housewives and mothers is not anti-feminist. I don’t have an issue with Molly because she chooses to be a houswife! I had an issue with the way the original comment was phrased, and as expecto-pootronum said, with the greater sociological context of conflating of motherhood and nurturing women (Lily, Molly, Narcissa) with goodness, and of childless goal-oriented women with evil (Marge, Umbridge, Bellatrix).

            I don’t think that the series OVERALL does this, as there are examples of mothers who are not nurturing or good (Petunia) and childless women who are (Minerva) and women who chase both a career and family (Hermione). I do think that the motherhood = good theme is very strong in JK’s writing though.

          • ThatTimeRemusWaddiwasiedVoldy

            While I totally see where this idea that motherhood=good is coming from, I guess I just find it too simplistic. Maybe this is just me but the message I get isn’t just that being a mother is good, but that a mother’s love specifically, is good, and not only good, but powerful in its own right. By the same token then, it isn’t that non-mothers=bad, but having no conception of motherly love and underestimating it, is a weakness. If that makes sense.

          • Wokanshutaiduo

            I do agree with this statement, I explained at the end of this thread what I meant with my comments :)

      • Witherwings

        Haha, I really do enjoy Bellla as a character! She is so skilled, unafraid to be brash and to take control, which is so unique in female characters. She is pretty evil, but she’s evil because she chooses to be, not because she has been scorned by a boyfriend or something. I also feel like she is one of the few movie characters who is given justice thanks to the brilliant Helena.
        I would agree that there is a nurturing stereotype for sure! I Didn’t go into it in my initial comment, but I’m glad you brought it up. I could see how you could definitely interpret the duel as reinforcing those stereotypes too. There is so much Jo puts in the books about mothers and whatnot that I can’t begin to go into it without my head exploding!

        • Lisa

          “I also feel like she is one of the few movie characters who is given justice thanks to the brilliant Helena.” Ugh no. Bellatrix is the character with by far the worst movie portrayal, I was so happy when Helena finally came out and admitted that she altered the character because I’d been saying that for years!

          But anyway, back on topic. Here’s what Rowling had to say about the duel: ” I saw Molly and Bellatrix standing opposite of each other for a long time; two completely different characters, who each show a very feminine side of love. The pure and protecting love of Molly, and the obsessive, perverse of Bellatrix. Those two feminine types of energy against each other. That was very satisfying to write.” (link: http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/2007/11/19/new-interview-with-j-k-rowling-for-release-of-dutch-edition-of-deathly-hallows/).

          So it’s not actually my interpretation since I didn’t put two and two together until I read her comments on it. I understand that motherhood is supposed to be an important theme of the series and I find nothing wrong with that. But it’s taking it a bit too far when despite Bella’s evilness, the thing emphasized most about her in her death is that she’s not maternal. I absolutely loathe the “women are nurturing and can always read your mind and understand your feelings” stereotype with a burning passion, but it’s just a personal thing perhaps.

          • Witherwings

            Ah, I didn’t know Helena said that! I personally like her acting so I suppose I am biased. How did she alter it? Just curious!

          • Lisa

            Here’s the quote: “Bellatrix has really good fun, and she’s been a bit of surprise to me, in fact,” Bohnam Carter said. “It wasn’t really there on the page. When I took it on, I found there wasn’t a huge amount to go by in the script, and I read the book and she wasn’t necessarily on the page there either, so I did ask David Yates if I could bring a bit of other things or are these the Bibles? And he said yes, certainly, and apparently J.K. Rowling was very pleased with it when she saw it, and the childish dimension and the fact that she’s totally savage, that was a bit of departure.” http://herocomplex.latimes.com/movies/helena-bonham-carter-on-belatrix-shes-horribly-revolting-and-weirdly-sexy/
            I’m the queen of links and quotes!!!

          • Witherwings

            Haha thanks for looking into it! That is so interesting- one of the reasons I don’t much care for movies made from books is that movie images really seep into how you Interpret and read the characters. It’s interesting that she said Bella “wasn’t on the page”…

          • HowAmIGoingToTranslateThis

            your link says “page not found”. can you please check it? I’d like to read it.
            I agree with you that it’s not fair to Bellatrix to reduce her to not being maternal. She has so many traits, and also many that put her apart from Molly. What I’m not reading into Jo’s words that you cited above is that she put’s an emphasis on Bellatrix not being a mother, but maybe that’s in the text you’ve linked.

          • Lisa

            Here it is again then: http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/2007/11/19/new-interview-with-j-k-rowling-for-release-of-dutch-edition-of-deathly-hallows/

            In case it doesn’t work you can google: jkr volkskrant interview and it will turn up. Here’s another quote, maybe a bit more to the point regarding the maternal thing:

            “It was the meeting of two kinds of – if you call what Bellatrix feels for Voldemort love, I guess we’ll call it love, she has a kind of obsession with him, it’s a very sick obsession … and I wanted to match that kind of obsession with maternal love… the power that you give someone by loving them. So Molly was really an amazing exemplar of maternal love. … There was something very satisfying about putting those two women together.”
            Link: http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/2007/10/07/postdh/#Weasleys

          • HowAmIGoingToTranslateThis

            Thank you! It’s a very interesting interview and I’ll come back to your topic later (must prepare meals :-))
            one sentence that leapt at me from the page: “she is the only woman on the good side who kills”
            Really????

    • Wokanshutaiduo

      In fact, borrowing from an idea from skgai comment elsewhere; it actually seems to be pushing the mothers being better than non-mothers agenda rather than being a commentary about women not having to be shoved into boxes.

      Actually your comment actually makes me very uncomfortable. “What a surprise that when you put together all of the qualities women are supposed to have into one person, you get someone as unpleasant as Bellatrix!” I feel this is highly insulting towards women who DO have everything put together; who are smart, skilled, accomplished, attractive, successful and wealthy, have a strong sense of self worth. Honestly, the idea that a woman who essentially has all the traits of a male and is unsurprisingly like a Bellatrix is highly unpalatable.

      Not that I think the books are trying to say that at all – because Hermione is the literal opposite of Molly Weasley and she is the perfect embodiment of feminism.

      • Witherwings

        The last thing I wanted to do was make anyone uncomfortable. I was merely trying to point out that there are so many unrealistic expectations for women- There is definitely that pressure to be nurturing, as you said, but there is also pressure to have a career and other qualities to demonstrate your worth. You could say the same for men too.

        Are there women who have it all? Yes! But you can talk to any of them and I bet they would tell you it’s not flawless or pretty- they worked super hard to get there. Jo, for instance, who is probably a great representation of a woman who society deems as “having it all”- she got there working through poverty, loss, depression and other tremendous hardships. She wasn’t “born that way” or made to be that naturally, as society expects it. I heard a good summary about this concept recently: “Work hard, but don’t look like it.” – sums up how I feel, anyway- be perfect and make it look effortless. Which is totally unrealistic!

        I thought that the whole point of feminism is that women CAN and SHOULD make different choices with their lives, based on what THEY want- not what social expectations state. Bella really is a good representation of a strong female in many aspects, I am not arguing that! I love that she speaks her mind and seizes control of situations (although it’s worth noting she is totally submissive to Voldemort). I’m sure she worked hard to get into the inner circle of Death Eaters, but that doesn’t mean I admire her with what she chose to do with her life. I do admire Molly, because though she isn’t as accomplished and made different choices, she was a good person. In my opinion.
        The comment you took issue with was to say that you can be everything culture wants you to be and still not be a great human. It was to say that there is so much more women have to offer than strict adherence to social norms.

        • Wokanshutaiduo

          This makes much more sense, thank thee for clarifying!

      • skgai

        Just like JKR you have very good thematic reasons why Molly should kill Bellatrix, but that doesn’t change my mind that Molly didn’t have the necessary skill to. She chooses to be a stay-at-home mom. That is fantastic. But if she had great duelling skill it would have faded due to lack of use unless she’s practicing every day. She’s going up against someone who uses those skills in real life daily. It’s simply not believable and is in no way setup in the books.

    • skgai

      Just like JKR you have very good thematic reasons why Molly should kill Bellatrix, but that doesn’t change my mind that Molly didn’t have the necessary skill to. She chooses to be a stay-at-home mom. That is fantastic. But if she had great duelling skill it would have faded due to lack of use unless she’s practicing every day. She’s going up against someone who uses those skills in real life daily. It’s simply not believable and is in no way setup in the books.

  • HowAmIGoingToTranslateThis

    this is a highly emotional chapter. Especially (British edition) page 589 gives us so much justice served in so few sentences:

    „Yaxley slammed to the floor by George and Lee“: Lee and George, who share the grief for Fred and work together to go on fighting until all the baddies are defeated. Yaxley, who was in charge of the Muggleborn Registration Commission, who wrecked so many lives and was spreading racism and hatred. Defeated by the pranksters and troublemakers who spend their time making other people happier.

    „Dolohov fall with a scream at Flitwick’s hands“: who’s the duelling champion now?

    „Macnair thrown across the room by Hagrid“: the beast slaughterer is defeated by the friend of all monsters, and Hagrid gets to use his physical strength. How often has he been insulted for his stature or his heritage? Time to make good use of it! No magic needed to get rid of this sadistic murderer.

    „Ron and Neville bringing down Fenrir Greyback“: avenging their Gryffindor friends: Lavender, Bill, Remus – and we don’t know how many others. The werewolf who was so self-assured that he never doubted his twisted ideas and knew no boundaries in his savage, he is defeated by the two men who needed time to grow out of their insecurities and managed it with the help of their friends.

    „Aberforth stunning Rookwood“: the barman secretly who worked together with the Order of the Phoenix defeating the Death Eater who passed on information from the department of mysteries. Of all the moles and double agents, Aberforth’s importance is often overlooked, and now he brings down his dark counterpart.

    „Arthur and Percy flooring Thicknesse“: Father and Son working together again, the heart and soul of the ministry of magic, two generations of devoted Weasley enthusiasm, defeating the person who was not strong enough to shake off the imperius curse clouding his mind. The repaired family bond so much stronger than the magical strings that pull the mindless puppet.

    aaaand page 590:
    Molly killing Bellatrix: i-co-nic.

    One day when I get to read DH aloud to my daughter, I’ll give my best performance of these passages, citing from memory and doing voices and sound effects and gestures, channeling Molly’s rage of mother into the line „you – will – never – touch – our – children – again!“
    It’s Molly’s last line in the book. Her final word on magical parenting. After decades of fearing for her children’s lives, countless times of worrying for her loved ones, constant caring and tending to, she ends this threat herself.

    • Witherwings

      So true! I was very excited that Hagrid threw Macnair. Every point you make here would have made for an epic movie montage….

      • Soc.forRescueofVanishedAnimals

        Yes! I’d forgotten what Macnair’s previous role was. Justice for Witherwings!!!

  • ThatTimeRemusWaddiwasiedVoldy

    I wanted to offer my take on Jo’s representation of women and mothers. There are so many points brought up in previous comments that I could post in like nine different places, so I’m just gonna drop this here as a sort of general response.

    I fully appreciate that people have pointed out how problematic the represention of non-maternal woman as “bad” is. As a childless woman of a certain age, I totally get that and am fully aware of the judgement recieved by actively choosing not to have children. However, I have never felt that Jo was villifying women like Bellatrix specifically because they aren’t mothers. I think there is a subtle distinction in perspective that can affect how we view this, or at least there is for me. The terms of causation can be flipped. I feel like rather than Jo saying “this woman is terrible because she doesn’t have children/ lacks maternal qualities” she is saying that “this woman is terrible and so is not a mother”. Bellatrix nature makes her incapable of possesing those maternal qualities necessary for motherhood. So she isn’t terrible because she isn’t a mother, but simply isn’t a mother because she would probably be a terrible one. I mean, does anyone think that Umbridge or Bellatrix would make a good parent? And I don’t think that this framework necessarally rules out all the other myriad of reasons why women may not become mothers, nor does it denigrate them for not doing so.

    To me, while I think Jo was clearly trying to show the power of the maternal bond and instinct, I never felt that she was actively trying to disparage non-mothers. I feel like she was merely trying to represent the fact that a mother’s love shouldn’t be underestimated, that it can be powerful and that it can be difficult for those who don’t experience it to fully understand it.

    I also have a ton of thoughts about whether or not the mothers in the series are limited to their function as a mother, but I think I’ll save those. Once we switch to the new format, the I’m sure the hosts will want to do an entire show just on the women in HP. It’s pretty clear that we are all going to have some great points to bring up, it should make for a riveting discussion, and I’m excited to hear more about what everyone thinks.

    • Witherwings

      Great perspective!

  • Soc.forRescueofVanishedAnimals

    The description of Nagini’s death is appalling and sad to me, actually. I realize that her life could not be spared if Voldemort were to be conquered, and I realize that she killed many people (my favorite character included). But she did those things at Voldemort’s command, and she was one of his victims, too — she was an innocent snake before Voldemort took her from the wild and used her first to make a Horcrux and then as an instrument of his own violence.

    At first I found it odd that, later in this chapter, the Elder Wand is compared to Nagini’s head as it flies through the air, but now I can see a connection — both are benign if left alone, but become dangerous when people try to use them for their own misguided purposes.

    That said, I feel a bit sad for Voldemort when Nagini is killed, because I do agree with Dumbledore that she is the one he feels the most connected to, maybe the only one who he feels understands him. And she is probably the one who is the most truly loyal to him. (I’m so curious about their relationship and about Nagini herself …)

    • ThatTimeRemusWaddiwasiedVoldy

      Those are really interesting thoughts. This does make me wonder how deep the Voldegini relationship went. Like, could we compare it to the bond a person has with their dog, where there is a deep sense of mutual emotional attachment, or is it merely a symbiotic partnership in which it is mutually beneficial to protect eachother, but there’s no real love shared. Maybe it’s somewhere in between. Would he give a damn if she was killed or even have kept her around, if she weren’t a horcrux? I think he might have valued her as a weapon even if she weren’t housing a piece of his soul, but probably wouldn’t have been too broken up about her dying.

      • Soc.forRescueofVanishedAnimals

        Good questions. Something makes me think he would have kept her regardless of her being a Horcrux, although I do wonder if she would have stayed or eventually fled. I just edited my comment above to note that the Horcrux influences the Voldegini (love that) relationship. So, it makes me wonder, if she’s the one he feels the greatest bond with, and if that bond possibly would not exist without a part of his soul inside of her, did he essentially have to create a duplicate of himself in order to find that understanding with another creature?

    • skgai

      Nagini is the character that is most deserving of a backstory from Pottermore. I am so fascinated by her. I think Voldemort created her like how you would create a Basilisk. It’s a unique creation and thus I think Nagini’s relationship with Voldemort is also unique. Why you feel sorry for I can’t agree with. She seems to be pure evil like Voldy.

      • Soc.forRescueofVanishedAnimals

        I find her completely fascinating, too, and would love more backstory. I somehow have the impression that Voldemort found her in the Albanian forest, but it would be an entirely different situation if he created her. In the former case, I would stand firm that she’s a victim, since I don’t think non-human animals can be judged according to the same good vs. evil moral spectrum as humans. But if she were some sort of magically-created creature, not found in nature, she could be seen as a product and agent of evil. There’s also the possibility that she’s something in between — a wild snake that has exceptional abilities or a special connection with magical people. (It seems that in the HP universe, all snakes have the ability to speak with Parselmouths, so maybe they all have other abilities beyond what most non-magical animals have … ?)

  • Griff

    Bringing up the centaurs also seems like a comment on action versus inaction and the flawed idea of inevitability. The centaurs stepped back, and watched the fates play out — and where did it get them? Hagrid’s accusation is jarring. Act on what you believe, or the world may be condemned.

  • Lord_Trolldemort

    Loved the episode! Absolutely wonderful work! And thank you for the shout-out to the Tom Riddle discussion happening in the previous episode. I really appreciate it and I found everyone’s ideas and feedback to be very enlightening.

    On the subject of Lord Voldemort’s thoughts on women, I was rather flabbergasted to find that you thought that he had some rather misogynistic tendencies! Voldemort might have some rather grim inclinations towards psychopathic actions and generally aiming at a genocide-oriented finale, but I can’t say that I would label him as someone who undermines women. I would just say that he thinks ill on humanity as a whole: man, women and everyone in between. I feel that he thinks that they are beneath them because they are all weak and mortal, prone to eventual ignominious death. I understand your arguments that he feels that women are there to sacrifice themselves for him, but I feel that we could just as easily argue that he thinks that men are there to sacrifice themselves for him. Humans, in general, are his pawns, not just mothers or women.

    • Wokanshutaiduo

      I agree, I don’t think Voldemort is misogynistic in the sense of thinking that women are magically weaker or more expendable.

      BUT. I do think the hosts have a point about his attitude towards mothers – not because they are women, but because they are mothers. Voldemort doesn’t understand love – so for him, loving your child and being willing to die for them is a sign of weakness, not strength. And in THIS sense, I think he definitely does look down on women as irrational emotional creatures.

      • Lord_Trolldemort

        I really don’t think that Voldemort had the power to differentiate between one kind of foolish sacrifice or another. Any sacrifice for the sake of love was a foolish one to him, least it be between two people who are in love or a mother and child or between friends, it really didn’t matter to him. I don’t think Voldemort judges based on gender or motherhood, I think he hates humanity equally. :) isn’t that a pleasant note?

  • Lord_Trolldemort

    Also, was anyone else expecting Voldie to just jump back up and shout “You’ve still got 12 more horcruxes to go, Potter! HAH! Joke’s on you!” And then he blows up the great hall. Just because.

  • Lord_Trolldemort

    Also, was anyone else just a bit taken aback by Voldemort’s visceral reaction to Bellatrix being killed? I was almost certain that he did not care for her in the slightest, but when she was finally defeated, it seemed that he really was quite upset by it. I think that it was more a reaction to losing such a useful and powerful follower, and his frustration, but I’d love to get everyone’s thoughts on this subject as well.

    • ISeeThestrals

      I wasn’t surprised. He did value her use and he did not want to see one of his strongest and most loyal followers fall, right at a time he thought he had the upper-hand on everyone.

      • Lisa

        He did value her, but I think we’re also shown how disappointed he was with her lately. Not only her failure at Malfoy Manor but even before that in OotP. So yes, his reaction did surprise me and it seems like it was a bit personal not just related to Death eater-y things.

    • Wokanshutaiduo

      This lends fuel to the Voldie-Bella shippers 😀

      Seriously though, I think his upset and fury comes from the fact that of all his followers, she is the most fanatically loyal and relatively competent, and her loss is a pretty big blow.

    • daveybjones999 .

      I think that it’s more like anger of losing a possession. Like you broke my cell phone, computer, game console, etc. How dare you where will I get a new one?

      • Anna_

        All Death Eaters were Lord Voldemort’s possessions. The questions is, possessions in what way? They all had their use, but Bellatrix’s use might have not been fully connected to her accomplishments as a follower. Not sure how child-friendly this site is supposed to be but I’m sure you all get my point.

    • HowAmIGoingToTranslateThis

      maybe part of Voldemort is angry that Bellatrix got herself killed – and I believe we can agree that it is more Bellatrix not paying attention for a moment than Molly’s duelling skill that enables Molly to land the deadly spell – and like her sister and brother-in-law fails to do what he wanted her to do.

      • Lisa

        But he was angry for her not at her. He tried to avenge her death.

        • HowAmIGoingToTranslateThis

          He can be angry at Bellatrix and angry at Molly at the same time.

  • the head girl

    Regarding Voldemort knowing about Hagrid and Harry’s close relationship, is it possible that Draco would have said something? I expect in his eager-puppy Death Eater phase, he would have told Voldemort everything he could think of, including the fact that Harry and Hagrid seem to have a closer relationship than just student-teacher. Voldemort probably wouldn’t have thought much of it, but maybe he would have kept it in his back pocket, just in case.

    Also, I saw somewhere – probably Tumblr? – a post about how the scene where Narcissa lies to Voldemort about Harry proves that she is the most powerful and unsung Occlumens in the entire series. She lies right to the Dark Lord’s face and doesn’t blink, and he doesn’t question her, although you’d think that with something this important, he’d be double-checking in her brain JUST TO BE SURE. Of course it’s probably just his arrogance, that of course Narcissa wouldn’t lie to him, but I love that idea.

  • HowAmIGoingToTranslateThis

    Where has Kreacher been since the trio has last seen him? Did he go to Hogwarts again? Imagine being in the kitchens when the fighting begins and the elves figure out what is happening and decide what to do. Would their duty to the school involve defending it against attackers? I hope not. Cleaning up the mess after a battle, sure, but not fighting. And if they can choose if they want to join the fight, I give the credit to Kreacher, who takes the lead, because the Hogwarts house elves are not known for their independence. Did they learn about Dobby’s fate? That he saved lives and gave his in the cause? What do they think about this? Do they regard him as a hero now?

    Where did the giants go who fought with Voldemort? Were they also tried in court and eventually sentenced to Azkaban for killing people? Or did they just return to where they had lived before?

    Did I miss him being mentioned or where did Seamus go after we see him in the room of requirement?

    I believe when Molly and Bellatrix were both at Hogwarts, they did not share classes. Their relationship could have been similar to the one between Pansy Parkinson and Angelina Johnson: Two girls in different years and houses, who know each other, but do hardly interact with each other. I can even picture Bellatrix insulting Molly once or twice and Molly ignoring her because she knows where the attitude comes from.

  • HowAmIGoingToTranslateThis

    what if question!
    What if Bellatrix had been a mother, too? Would Molly have killed her? Or would she instead have chosen another spell to knock her opponent out to be captured, tried and sentenced?

    • ISeeThestrals

      I think she would’ve chosen another spell. Thing is, I’d like to know what curse she used on Bellatrix. Was it actually the unforgivable ‘avada kedavra’ or just one strong enough to kill her when it struck her chest?
      Anyways, I tried to imagine Molly going for the kill if Bellatrix was a mother, but I find it hard to see her doing that as she’d end up feeling guilty for orphaning a child.

      • ThatTimeRemusWaddiwasiedVoldy

        Good point, it would be really helpful to know which spell Molly used. What spells are capable killing someone, but aren’t illegal to use? Or are there illegal spells other than the Unforgivables? I guess spells that aren’t specifically meant to harm would just be policed by the method of use. Like Mcgonagall’s flying knives… wizard duels sound terrifying actually.

        • HowAmIGoingToTranslateThis

          There must be other illegal spells, the three we know are just “unforgiveable” and therefor famous. Other lethal spells would not be made that famous, because if people don’t know them, they can’t use them.

          Not illegal to use, but deadly: exploit any weakness in the opponent’s body. If Minerva and Sluggy had duelled to kill, he would have offered several weak spots. On the other hand I believe the painless AK is somehow preferable to other spells that combine pain and death.

      • HowAmIGoingToTranslateThis

        Jo said in an interview that Molly is the only woman on the good side who killed. (the one Lisa linked below) The situation in which she killed and her opponent are very specific, I agree that it’s hard to imagine her killing someone else in another situation. Bellatrix is even more savage than Voldemort when it comes to killing and torturing, and she killed Tonks hours ago, who is her niece and a young mother. Molly knows that Bellatrix wanted to kill Tonks for a
        long time and even though she may not know exactly that she has indeed done that, it’s clear that Bellatrix does not have moral inhibitions about hurting others. I guess this fact is what makes Molly feel that it is alright in this situation to kill her.

    • ThatTimeRemusWaddiwasiedVoldy

      Ooo, what a great question! Assuming that being a mother does nothing to change Bellatrix’s behavior or actions through the series…I have some varying thoughts but I think I’m leaning towards Molly still killing her. I don’t think Molly would have felt good about it, but, this duel in particular feels to me very much like a kill or be killed situation. It kind of makes me think back to what Lupin said to Harry about the DEs being out to “capture and kill” him and to resort “at least” to stunning if he wasnt able to kill. To me this suggested that killing was definitely on the table for Lupin, and probably the rest of the Order too. Its just the reality of the situation and I think against an opponent like Bellatrix, it is probably wise not to take chances. I don’t know though, that arguement also makes me really uncomfortable.

      Another thought though… What if Molly wasn’t actually trying to kill to begin with? Like the power of her curses just got away from her? Perhaps she did intend to simply knock out Bellatrix? I don’t know, worth mentioning though I think.

      • Lisa

        “What if Molly wasn’t actually trying to kill to begin with?” The text says that both of them were fighting to kill, though, so I guess that was her intention.

        As for Bella being a mother, it would depend on how old the child was. I don’t think Molly would have spared her if she had a child Draco’s age or older but if she had a three year-old or was actually pregnant during the duel (and Molly knew or guessed), then who knows? I would like to see Molly living with the consequences of killing someone’s mother since she so all about family. Yes, I am sadistic.

        • ThatTimeRemusWaddiwasiedVoldy

          Oh, yep, I forgot about that line.

        • HowAmIGoingToTranslateThis

          I believe there is a range of curses that cause those kind of injuries that kill a person in seconds.

          If Molly knew that it was Bellatrix who killed Tonks, I believe she would kill Bellatrix regardless of her children or their age, because she is too much of a threat for parents and children alike. Living with that murder on her conscience would be hard. But I
          believe she understands that in a war these things can happen and she’d rather have it on her conscience than on anyone elses.

      • HowAmIGoingToTranslateThis

        I also believe that from the moment Molly saw that Bellatrix tried to kill Ginny, Molly went in to stop Bellatrix from doing that by killing her. Regardless of the exact spell (AK may be illegal, but any other curse that causes painful injury that leads to death in seconds seems more ethically problematic to me) Molly’s dialogue suggests that she wants to take no chances on her opponent’s survival. Luna and Hermione are also threatened and their mothers aren’t there to help them, that may also be a factor.

        I find it very interesting how the Order of the Phoenix members deal with the moral aspects of killing and using illegal curses. Personally I’m with Harry, the AK curse is off limits, period. Anything that might be lethal is to be avoided. But if it is a question of killing or being killed like in this specific duel? Harry was watching and wanted to interfere, but ddn’t, because he didn’t want to hit the innocent, meaning Molly. Now Molly is said to be the only woman on the good side who kills. So much for innocent.
        Of course in this situation Molly has motive, opportunity and ability to kill Bellatrix, but did really no other woman kill anyone in this battle?
        We could use this as proof that Pomona Sprout and her team did not kill anyone with the mandrakes. Minerva is certainly trying to avoid killing, Luna and Ginny or Angelina, Katie, Cho, Parvati and all the other female DA members would also adhere to that principle. But what
        about Fleur? What set of morals do they teach at Beauxbatons? Augusta Longbottom’s son was an auror, what that her job, too? Didn’t Professor Trelawney crack any skulls with her crystal orbs? How many people on the bad side died that night? Less than on the good side, I
        guess.

        The people who defeat all the Death Eaters right before the two final duels, they’re all guys. I can’t believe I didn’t notice that before.

        And of course someone who is as fanatic as Bellatrix can also be a parent, having children does not automatically make people even-tempered and peaceful. Maybe the
        magical society would have demanded different things from her if she had had children, but I guess Bellatrix does not care about society, just about her Lord’s wishes. I have a hard time deciding what Voldemort would have made of a mother who becomes his most loyal and bloodthursty follower. His prejudice of „mothers abandon their kids“ would have been reinforced, I guess.

        • Lisa

          I guess by innocent, Harry just means that Molly isn’t the evil one in this situation. I’m sure Rowling would also consider Molly an innocent since she killed to defend her child. I for one find it very hard to understand why anyone would want to kill anyone in order to save Ginny but that’s just my cynical side showing through I guess. Apparently her Bat Bogey Hex didn’t work against a real witch, lol. I can totally see that taking Bella on was Ginny’s idea with Hermione and Luna being more sensible and trying to stop her initially but then have no choice but to join the fight.

          As for other women killing, did the men kill anyone? I mean, besides Harry killing Voldemort. I know we see a series of Death Eaters falling at the hands of Professors, students or Order members, but does that mean they’re dead or just knocked out and captured later? Really, the only two people on the dark side we know for sure got killed are Bellatrix and Voldemort. I could see Augusta killing someone. I could also see Minerva killing someone. Not Hermione, though. But the fact is, we don’t see any deaths on the dark side apart from these two.

  • Soc.forRescueofVanishedAnimals

    This may be water under the bridge, but I wanted to clarify/elaborate on my response to the last episode’s Question of the Week. (Thanks for reading my comments this week! I was a bit surprised, as I don’t think they were really my best, but we all have to start somewhere. :)

    So, to clarify, I don’t believe that Dumbledore had any obligation to reveal information about his past that he preferred to keep private. Nor do I think he was insincere in his kind demeanor and treatment of Harry and the other students. Yet I do think that, perhaps, Dumbledore owed it to Harry and Snape — as the two people who put their lives at his mercy and who possibly counted on him the most — to be more open about the things he shared in common with them and the way he felt about the choices he was forced to make in order to win the war. Imagine what it would have meant to Harry if Dumbledore had been at least partly honest about what he saw in the Mirror of Erised; even if he’d only said, vaguely, “I see something very similar to what you see, Harry.” Imagine the difference if Dumbledore would have told Harry that, while he cares deeply for him and would never want to hurt him, there may come a day when he can no longer be there for him and might even have to put him in a position that doesn’t seem fair or loving. And if he would have told Harry how much pain that causes him, I think Harry would appreciate that honesty and not resent Dumbledore for doing what he felt he had to do.

    Imagine if he would have said to Snape, “Brother, I too have regrets and a past that I’m not proud of. I, too, have loved and lost. And I, too, am continuing to do some things my conscience can barely live with in order to win this damn war.” Even without going into details (because I don’t think Snape would have demanded details), Dumbledore could have strengthened the bond of trust between the two of them, which would have helped, since he had to withhold so much other information from Snape. Maybe Dumbledore himself would have found great relief in sharing just a bit about himself to these important people in his life.

    I’m quite private and usually only share things about myself with certain people after establishing a close, trusting relationship, so I don’t judge Dumbledore for how he was. But some readers would feel differently, I think, if he had been more honest about himself with Harry or Snape. When someone seems too perfect, it can be a bit tedious, but as soon as you find out that they have their own struggles, you usually find a point of connection and sympathy.

  • Roonil Wazlib

    I agree that the use of the word remorse was quite deliberate on Harry’s part. And perhaps he was genuinely trying to show Tom Riddle some compassion/a way to redemption.
    BUT
    Earlier in the book when the trio discusses horcruxes, Hermione says that the only way to repair the damaged soul is to feel remorse and that “the pain of it can destroy you.”
    So I wonder… perhaps Harry suggested remorse here because a small part of him hoped that Voldemort would actually do it and end up destroying himself, thus relieving Harry from the task of killing him.

    (Not saying Harry thought this was likely to happen, just that maybe the idea crossed his mind.)

    • MartinMiggs

      I was going to say that myself, great minds think alike it seems

    • Kat

      OH OH – great point! Didn’t even think of that!

    • Lord_Trolldemort

      This is a super tough subject, because I personally think that Tom Riddle’s personality had already developed to the point that, even when he was approached by Dumbledore as a child, he had no sense of human empathy. I already said my part on how I think that this is the result of a mixture between Anti-Social Personality Disorder, and perhaps some rather serious abuse (I’m no expert so I can’t be sure!)

      I pointed this out on my Question of the Week response, but asking Voldemort to feel remorse would be speaking another language to him. He just has no ability to understand. Had Dumbledore found him earlier or his mother chosen to live and raise him or he had developed some sort of trust in authority figures, maybe he would have been able to wrap his mind around this idea but as it is now, there’s really no hope. I feel like Harry asking him to feel remorse is almost a taunt to him.

      He’s clearly curious about it! You can tell the gears are spinning, but they’re just not catching a damn thing. ^^; It’s a shame really. I wanted more of his ending so badly.

      • Soc.forRescueofVanishedAnimals

        Great points, and another reason why I can’t deal with Harry’s “be a man” taunt. This is so much more serious and complicated than that kind of trash talk.

        • Lord_Trolldemort

          I totally agree. I feel like Harry is above that kind of trash talking. I feel like even Voldemort is looking at him like, “Really? You’re doing this right now? Of all times?”

          • Soc.forRescueofVanishedAnimals

            Voldemort is absolutely thinking, “Hold up — I have pursued Potter for the past 17 years; I orchestrated two highly symbolic and dramatic encounters in a graveyard and a fire-lit forest; and now it is going to end with him circling me and trash talking me like this is the WWE?”

          • Lord_Trolldemort

            Can someone please rewrite this final fight scene with all of your dialogue instead, and when Harry reveals himself from under the cloak, a bunch of airhorns go off and he’s randomly wearing about 15 gold chains and is gesturing rudely to Voldemort?

          • Soc.forRescueofVanishedAnimals

            Alternate chapter title: Smackdown

          • Lord_Trolldemort

            Harry goes super saiyan mid-way through the fight. Voldemort pulls a flaming katana out of God knows where. Epic metal begins to play in the background. I think we’ve got ourselves an ending chapter.

          • Soc.forRescueofVanishedAnimals

            Beautiful. I’m going to be laughing at your image of chain-wearing, super saiyan Harry all day.

        • Roonil Wazlib

          Ugh I hate the “be a man” line so much!! (I hate it anytime I hear that phrase in any context obviously, but it seems especially wrong and out of place here.)

      • Roonil Wazlib

        Yeah I could definitely read it as a taunt as well. I don’t think there was any chance that Voldemort could actually feel remorse and I think Harry pretty much knew that.

    • Soc.forRescueofVanishedAnimals

      Ah, I was thinking the same thing! Honestly, I think there is a good chance that we could be correct. Because the word “remorse” seems deliberate not just on Harry’s part but also on Rowling’s part, to help us to recall that specific conversation. The pain could destroy Voldemort, obviating Harry from the need for killing *and* potentially being more of a guarantee than the Elder Wand, which he’s otherwise relying on.

      I’ve been puzzling over this line for a long time. If it were a genuine gesture of compassion and attempt to give Voldemort the opportunity to save himself, would Harry really have resorted to the “be a man” taunt? (I can’t stand that phrase, and it does nothing to elevate Harry to a higher plane.) I feel more like he’s goading Voldemort into doing something that would actually be self-destructive or at least weaken him, while having the advantage of making Harry seem magnanimous. However, I can see how it would be more consistent with Harry’s characterization to be a genuine offer of saving his life.

      • Lisa

        Alternative ending to DH

        Harry: Come on man, show some remorse, don’t be such a house elf (sorry, Hermione)!

        Voldy: Merlin’s saggy left! Harry you’re right, I’ve been a terrible person, I’m so sorry, I promise to do better from now on *sobs*

        Great Hall: *crickets, crickets* *uncomfortable shifting*

        Random sixth year student: So, um, can we go home now and call it a day? Since he’s you know, sorry and all that?

        Yeah, I doubt it was a genuine request or opportunity he was offering Voldemort. I also doubt that Harry actually remembered what Hermione said. I think he was just showing off because he knew there was no way in hell Voldemort would show remorse.

      • Roonil Wazlib

        Omg I hate the phrase “be a man” So Much. And I agree–that line makes it seem much more like Harry is trying to provoke Voldemort into doing something that might destroy him, rather than showing compassion for his damaged soul.

        • Soc.forRescueofVanishedAnimals

          I don’t really care for Harry’s demeanor throughout much of this final encounter with Voldemort. It just seems juvenile and conceited, at times, like his James is showing. Not that Voldemort was particularly gracious, or that Harry doesn’t deserve to let out his emotions after all he has done, but he could have risen above, like Dumbledore usually did.

  • texaskid

    So this may sound a little morbid but it’s out of plain curiosity. At the beginning of chapter 33 Ron leads the way to the Great Hall and we see that as the book says “The injured were being treated by Madam Pomfrey and a group of Helpers…… The dead lay in a row in the middle of the hall”. Then later in chap 34, after Harry leaves Dumbledore’s office he remarks on how empty the castle was “as if all its remaining lifeblood were concentrated in the Great Hall where the dead were”. Then in Chap 36 on page 734 it says that Voldemort was backing into the great hall. Then a page later Harry enters the Great Hall to find Voldemort in the center of the fight. After this it never mentions what happens to the dead bodies that were laying in the same spot only a half an hour or so before until page 745 when it mentions that they moved Voldies body away from the rest who had died fighting against him.

    So my question is what happened to all the dead between the time that Harry heads for the forest and Harry and Voldies fight in the great Hall?

  • MartinMiggs

    When Narcissa finds out that Harry is alive she must’ve realized that at some point Voldemort would figure this out. Did she expect to have enough time to find Draco before this happened? And if she simply wanted to come back to the school with the “conquering army” it would’ve been easier to just say he’s alive, kill him, and go into the school to grab Draco.

    • ThatTimeRemusWaddiwasiedVoldy

      I suppose it’s possible that she didn’t believe Harry could be killed, at least not easily enough to be worth it, at this point. I mean, he has miraculously avoided death multiple times now.

  • SnapesManyButtons

    It turns out next weekend is Mother’s Day and my brother and his wife, plus one of my nephews and his family are ALL going to be visiting that weekend!! Why do I have weekend after weekend of nothing important to do and on movie watch weekends there’s always something to get in the way! I may be able to sneak away for the movie itself, but I always miss the after movie discussions and I really wanted to do this one! If it were just my sister’s kids I could claim to be letting them have time alone, but I so rarely get to see my brother and he picks THAT weekend to visit! Okay… rant over…

    • HowAmIGoingToTranslateThis

      Tell him you need to make an urgent call, as soon as the hosts start taking skype calls, so your brilliant contributions will be shared in the chat! We can log the chat for you, so you can read it afterwars. Deal?

    • Soc.forRescueofVanishedAnimals

      Are we sure that the movie watch will be next weekend? There may be one more episode first – the book wrap that they traditionally do, with the international covers and all that fun stuff. I’m out either way, but hopefully you’ll be able to make it if it’s the following weekend!

      • SnapesManyButtons

        Oh, that would be great! I forgot about book wrap up, I’ve only been here for two movie watches and really don’t want to miss the last one!

  • I know I’m late to this part but Kat mentioned a parenting/mother topic based episode. I’d like to vote for this topic a million time & know when would be the best time to submit a recording to be on the episode. As a mom I have tons to say on the subject!

    • Lisa

      Yay! I would love an episode like that and it’s such an important theme in the books!