PDVD_987

Episode 60 – GoF 22: Wizardly Spins

Here we are to discuss Chapter 22 of Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire! Join hosts Eric, Laura, Michael and special guest host Katlyn as they find dates for the Yule Ball.

On Episode 60 we discuss…

→ Episode 59 Recap: Is Moody seeing dead people?; Equality FTW; The clothes make the elf; Magic or Morals?; Laundry & freedom; Is the golden egg your worst fear?
→ PQOTW Responses
→ Why is Hogwarts so unsocial?
→ Calm before the storm
→ Do Wizards practice religion?
Question of the Week
→ Check out the Alohomora! Store

To listen to the show, simply click the player below or direct download the episode. You can also subscribe to us on iTunes. For more information about the podcast and to find out how to be on the show, check out our Be On The Show! page.

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  • DolphinPatronus

    I have to say I love when you guys mention &/or read my comments thanks :) You guys rock keep up the good work!

  • Aradan

    I think though, for the ball, it’s a bit unfair to call it a punishment that the participants of the triwizard cup open the whole thing. Most of them are at least 17, and that’s an age where many guys start appreciating dancing a lot more (in my experience girls often enjoy it even earlier). For me it would be an honor to open the Yule ball (even if I prefer swing). The thing with Harry is, he’s still a lot younger, 14 years old at this point, I believe, and that still leaves him at a junior high school age where a lot of boys are self conscious, and often awkward, which is why it’s such a scary idea for Harry that he has to lead into the whole thing.

  • Olivia Underwood

    I found it interesting how JK Rowling seems to make the majority of girls in this chapter stereotypical – a.k.a. silly, giggly, moving in packs, sort of… annoying. But the thing is, I wonder whether she’s actually being critical and not just satirical. I don’t believe for a minute that Hermione and Ginny are the only individualistic girls in their age group. They’re there, but you just don’t see them. They’re simply not as bold nor as confident as Hermione or Ginny. And we mustn’t forget that H and G are the minority. How many girls in your class were like Hermione? Seriously? As this is coming from Harry’s point of view, perhaps Rowling is highlighting how boys view girls in a stereotypical way, judging way too fast, purely on first impressions. And to be honest, this criticism applies to everyone really. When we think of teenagers, we like to categorize them, put them in labelled boxes. It’s in every 80’s-90’s teen movie. If I may steal a quote from “The Breakfast Club”, which puts it in a nutshell.

    “Dear Mr. Vernon, we accept the fact that we had to sacrifice a whole Saturday in detention for whatever it was we did wrong. What we did *was* wrong. But we think you’re crazy to make us write an essay telling you who we think we are. You see us as you want to see us… In the simplest terms, in the most convenient definitions. But what we found out is that each one of us is a brain…..and an athlete…..and a basket case…..a princess….and a criminal…Does that answer your question?… Sincerely yours, the Breakfast Club.”

    • Elvis Gaunt

      Out of all the named femaled characters we see in this series, Parvati, Lavender and Pansy (Romilda Vane?) are the only stereotypical female characters. All the other giggling girls Harry encounters in this chapter are unnamed and Harry is stereotyping them because he doesn’t know anything about them. There are many other girls in this series like Luna, Angelina, Alicia, Katie, Demelza, and Susan. Hannan is another girl who seems to hang out mostly with guys. None of them are shown to behave stereo-typically. The reason is Harry knows them personally and does not put them in boxes. There are two cases in point; Cho and Fleur. Cho is giggling at the beginning. Later, when Harry is in a relationship with her she is shown to have more character and then when it was all going downhill, she is stereo-typically crying and being jealous. Fleur initially seemed to be there merely for romantic appeal. She appears to be just a pretty face inspite of being a Tournament Champion. She shows a lot of maturity and strength later in the series. These were obviously the reasons why she was picked by the goblet. However, we have to wait till book six to appreciate her because that ‘s when Harry does so.

      • Subjective Unicorn

        Also there is Tonks, who is someone Harry knows quite well to give her a character. She is I think everything Ginny wants to be, smart, brave and has a unique personality and loves Quidditch. No wonder in book 6 Hermoiny and Ginny prefer Tonks to Fleur as Bill’s girlfriend

        • Olivia Underwood

          I agree totally with both comments! Please do not misunderstand me, Tonks and Luna happen to be my favourite characters. Remember, I said majority of the girls in this chapter, not the books. I think Rowling here is criticizing society, or in this case young adolescents, for putting people, particularly women, into stereotypical boxes. She makes this point as a whole by creating, as you’ve both mentioned, fantastic female role models. I meant that the criticism applies to everyone, not the stereotyping! Rowling explores this further in probably the most heart-wrenching part of the entire series – Snape’s memories of Lily. Putting Lily in a box, which we all know what was labelled as, was their friendship’s, and ultimately Lily’s, undoing. Does that make sense?

          • Subjective Unicorn

            yeah it does make sense. Well maybe we as humans all tend to categorise people whom we don’t know into stereotypes. As soon as we are getting to know this person we remove all the stereotypes from them and make them an individual in our heads. I am sure its valid for absolutely everyone, girls categorising boys, vice versa, people of some ethnicities stereotyping the other ethnicities etc.

  • Knight GryffinPuff

    Loved the episode! I agree with Laura as this being one of my favorite chapters. As mentioned in the episode, the reason is that it so closely mimics the situations and emotions that teenagers experience. Speaking of which…

    I did have a question for female listeners who had male friends. Did your male friends treat you as “one of the guys” like Harry and Ron do in this episode? Asking Hermione is so obvious, yet they wait until the last minute. Is this typical?

    Oh, and another one! Being completely honest, one reason that I didn’t want to go to dances (or later dance clubs when I was older) was that I didn’t know how to dance. At all. Even swaying back and forth seems challenging when you’ve never done it. I had lots of guy friends who said the same king of thing when I was younger, but the stereotype is that this is not true for women. I’ve always wondered why that is. Do girls naturally know how to dance? If not, how do they learn? Do they practice dancing in front of a mirror? With their friends? Why is it that young girls aren’t as self conscious of their “dance moves” as young guys?

    Thanks!

    • DolphinPatronus

      I can’t speak to your questions about dancing caus I was never much for it either but as far as my male friends treating me like “one of the guys” I can reply. With my male friends I had a bit of both. A few of them I actually dated at one point or another & or one of us had a crush on the other at a point. But ultimately I was the friend they came to with girl questions. In some cases it was cause we were like brother & sister & in others it was because they knew I was a girl but also knew they could ask me anything & I’d help the best I could.

  • Gus

    Ok I’ve solved the hallow cloak vs moody eye problem!!!

    Moody’s eye doesn’t have the stone in it, but it was created by Dumbledore using, the elder wand!!!

    Solves the issue of the eye being able to see through the unbeatable hallow cloak.

    • Dan Sharp

      I don’t understand why Moody being able to see through the cloak is such a big deal. The Hallows are not all-powerful super weapons that can never be beaten by anybody. How did Dumbledore beat Grindelwald if he had the Elder Wand? Nobody ever seems to worry about that but when the cloak shows a minor flaw everyone is on it like white on rice. The Hallows were simply very well made objects by normal but powerful and talented wizards. Moodys eye is made to see through all invisibility cloaks and that includes the Hallow, like it or not.

      • DolphinPatronus

        I agree. Nobody seems too fussed that the Resurection Stone “allowed” itself to be turned into a Horcrux as well.

      • Knight GryffinPuff

        Just speaking for myself, I think there is a certain romanticism to the notion of artifacts or especially powerful magical items. Stripping those items of that power isn’t “fun”. While I believe your explanation, I continue to prefer to think of the Hallows as being powerful artifacts.

        If the Hallow cloak doesn’t prevent detection by magical means, then how is it any better than a normal invisibility cloak? I need to re-read the passage from the last book where the Hallows are stripped of their fairytale interpretation. Where is that roughly? Does he imply that the Hallows aren’t special at all? Thanks!

        • Dan Sharp

          It’s in “King’s Cross” when Dumbledore is speaking to Harry after he “died”. The Hallow cloak is special because after thousands of years it still works perfectly and it can shield others as well. Most I.Cs only last a few years and can get holes in them when blasted by spells. And the Hallows are powerful artifacts, just not all-powerful.

          • DolphinPatronus

            If I’m not mistaken Ron also mentions this at some point earlier in DH as well. (possibly around the time Hermione tells the story of them)

  • SpectacularlyHypothetical

    I think the brief mention of religious festivals in the series was very interesting and could probably have a whole episode given over to discussing religion in the HP universe.

    I think in this particular instance the school tends to focus on the more pagan and folk traditions of Christmas (trees, elves feasting etc) as opposed to the more Christian elements. In terms of Easter, I think they break at this point because that’s when most British schools separates their second and third terms so hogwarts is no different.

    I think religion is absent from the series for a couple of reasons. One is literary, Harry is so obviously a Christ-figure in the series it would be a bit overdone if you constantly had references to wizarding religion, I think Jo prefers to be more subtle than that.

    A more in-universe explanation would be that a lot of real world religion comes out of doubt and mystery surrounding death. A lot if people think “is this all there is?” And then turn to a religion to provide deeper meaning to existence. On the wizarding world it is known that this isn’t all there is. The immortal soul is a known and measurable substance and life after-death is known to exist. Because it is known, faith is not necessary and faith is such an important aspect of all religions, no “religion” (as we muggles would understand the term) need exist in the wizard world.

    • Dan Sharp

      I would think proof of an afterlife would make religion stronger in a society. However, I think it was smart of Jo not focus on any particular religion in the books as it made them more accessible world-wide.

  • The most compelling evidence that wizards practice Muggle religion can be found in Deathly Hallows. When Hermione and Harry visit Godric’s Hollow, they find that there is a Christmas Eve service going on in the church, which leads them to explore the church graveyard. There, they find that the Peverells, the Dumbledores, and the Potters are all buried in the church graveyard. I think it’s pretty unlikely that the church would permit them to rest there in death, had they not practiced the religion of that church (C of E, perhaps?) in life. Whether they believed, or whether they practiced because it was a good cover for being a wizard, it’s clear that they must have practiced.

    • Elvis Gaunt

      Good observation :)

    • Raven

      Also in Deathly Hallows during the Fallen Warrior scene. When Bill comes back Molly sees him and says “Thank God Thank God!” I just remember it sticking out to me because I don’t remember anyone mentioning God before. I don’t think it was meant to be just a turn of phrase. I could definitely see Molly being a religious person. Also Harry says it to Molly about George. Molly says “at least he’s alive” and Harry says “Thank God”

      • DolphinPatronus

        I don’t think I would consider that a showing of any religious belief. I know atheist & agnostics that say “Thank God” all the time.

        • froggyhpmb3

          Yeah, but I guess you could say that Molly (being raised as a pureblood, if a blood traitor one) knows about religion and whether or not she goes to church perhaps, she still acknowledges a God and leads us to believe that wizards might have religious views.

          • Raven

            Yes exactly

        • Dan Sharp

          I am an atheist/agnostic and I say “Thank God” all the time. It’s a turn of phrase. However, now that we know Jo’s own religious beliefs, I would say it exisits in HP but its not spoken about

          • DolphinPatronus

            I didn’t mean to imply that the characters are all religionless. I simply meant that using phrases like that don’t require any religious belief. I find Erin’s comments far more compelling evidence of religion in the wizarding world.

          • Dan Sharp

            I was agreeing with you. I also find Erin’s comment compelling, especially since Godric’s Hollow was home to so many wizarding families. I think it was mentioned somewhere that it is the largest wizarding community in the British Isles outside of Hogsmead. I’ve said in a few comments already that I think religion exists in the HP universe (and if I had such clear evidence for both a soul and an afterlife I’d be a believer too) but isn’t spoken about because it isn’t important to the story and even makes the books more accessible to a world-wide readership.

          • DolphinPatronus

            Sorry Dan, I actually meant to reply to froggyhpmb3 I must’ve clicked the wrong reply button. Oops. (I’ve been a bit spacey lately)

  • Elvis Gaunt

    I know I am an episode too late for this comment, but there was so much discussion about whether house-elf enslavement was magical or mere brainwashing and you guys did not come to a proper conclusion. However, the question is actually answered in the series. In Half-blood Prince, Dumbledore checks if Harry inherited Sirius’ property by asking Harry to order Kreacher. Kreacher had no idea about any will of Sirius’ and even he knew he was certainly not a better interpreter of it than Dumbledore. No, he had to obey Harry because he was now magically bound to Harry (even without his knowledge). However, their wanting to serve might come from centuries of this practice and brainwashing.

  • Aradan

    It always cracks me up when I read Hermione calling the yule ball a time to let their hair down, because that occasion is the one where we see Hermiones hair as up as it ever is in the entire series.

  • Subjective Unicorn

    It is a common knowledge that Christianity is a mix of old paganism and other religions. I always thought that wizards are practising or tolerating old traditions of paganism, which transformed themselves into Christianity in muggle world. So wizards have accepted this transformation or maybe some muggle born wizards brought christianity into wizard community. They could have renamed the pagan holidays into Easter and Christmas, but without the religious meaning behind it. Rather like a tradition or tolerance towards the muggle born wizards, who grew up with some hints of Christianity in their families.
    After all we do find out that there are Nuns in Nearly Headless Nick’s death day party, therefore it seems that Christianity entered wizarding world quite some time ago.
    But still is it a tradition for all wizards or just the most muggle friendly ones? For now we have experienced only liberal minded wizards celebrating christmas, I wonder if pro pure blood maniacs also have this tradition. What do you think?

    • DolphinPatronus

      I would think the “pro pure-blood maniacs” would stick to the more pagan practices since the Christian traditions would’ve come from Muggles. (Tho Christianity has adapted the majority of the most common traditions of both Ostara & Yule)

      • Subjective Unicorn

        I agree. Also Sirius’ celebration of Christmas in book 5 by putting hats on the dead Elves’ heads can be also understood as a kind of vindictive provocation towards his already dead family and the house elf, who were probably opposing Christmas as every other pure blood obsessed families. It had definitely put Sirius in a better mood :)

        • DolphinPatronus

          Maybe. But truthfully the modern day Santa (I assume they were Santa hats) is more a mix of legends. While a few are religious they come from both Christian & pagan religions & most of the others are more literary.

          • Subjective Unicorn

            Yes of course. But my point was in whichever way the muggles upgrade their religious believes, in the same way the muggle loving wizards would follow the tradition of the muggles. Regardless how the muggles got their traditions.

          • DolphinPatronus

            I wasn’t disagreeing with your point. I was simply saying Santa as he is today is mainly a secular idea.

      • Elvis Gaunt

        Pagan practices also come from muggles.

        • DolphinPatronus

          I know but pagans refer to their practices as magic & refer to themselves as witches, wizards or warlocks. Which is why I worded my comment the way I did.

  • Bill White

    I don’t think making the deliniation(sp) between goblins and house-elves because goblins are shown on the run in DH and even though it is in an unenchanted forest. The simple fact that they are out in the open dictates that there must be a “Mist”(Percy Jackson) that makes muggles not notice that they are different. A great example of this is in PS/SS where only Hagrid and Harry can see the Leaky Cauldron because that implies that even though muggles notice harry and hagrid then you have to imagine what were they working towards. Also, the fact that muggleborns can see Gringotts with the magical link(when a muggleborn gets their letter from hogwarts) even though if they didn’t have magically blood what would they see. Meaning if you could get into diagon alley without magical blood what would you see, run down buildings or the actual shops and would have to be escorted out and memory modified.

    • Elvis Gaunt

      In Chamber, Hermione’s parents are in the Diagon Alley and they see everything that wizards see. So, its not just muggle-borns, even muggles can see Gringotts, goblins etc. They just don’t know/ care about the hidden entrance through the Leaky Cauldron.

    • froggyhpmb3

      I think the idea is just the fact that muggle minds are determined to put things into terms they can understand. A muggle with the knowledge that the Leaky Cauldron is more than just a run down dodgy looking store is going to be able to see it but other than that muggles dismiss it as an abandoned building.
      There is however something to be said about a type of muggle repelling charm or possibly even a Fidelius/Platform 9 3/4 type spell where if you know about it you can see it.

  • froggyhpmb3

    I think I have to disagree with something you said in this episode. There was one part where someone said that house elves are bound by moral obligation to their masters and not magic. Someone said that if there was magic Dobby wouldn’t be able to leave the Malfoys to see Harry. However if there wasn’t magic I think that Dobby, being Dobby, would have just left the masters he disliked so much.

    • froggyhpmb3

      I also think that the fact that Dobby was able to leave could be the result of something like with Kreature in OoTP.

      In regards to the fact that having the house elves being magically bound to their families taking away the commentary Jo was providing on slavery, I think it was her “means to an end”. Why would house elves serve a master- because they are magically forced to. I think that the commentary still applies even if magic is involved in it.

  • CentaurSeeker121

    It could be slightly possible that the muggle and half-blood children attending Hogwarts could have brought their traditions with them and maybe it just sort of stuck. Maybe the school, in an attempt to accommodate all of their students decided to start doing it to make the muggleborn and half-blood children feel more at home. But then we also see celebrating outside of school on a few occasions and they do exchange presents so it could just be them copying what the muggles are doing to get in on the holiday.

    As for religion….it may be that wizards and witches have some form of it and Rowling just thought it wasn’t important enough to add (like Harry taking a shower). According to Pottermore, McGonogall’s father was a muggle who was also a reverend. Who is to say that there are not others out there like her? If her dad was a reverend than that leads me to believe that she had to have gone to church with him at some point, but it’s not mentioned in the books. Just because it’s not something that is seen, doesn’t mean that it’s something that’s not done.

  • Danielle Karthauser

    I know it was brought up that there are never any school events at Hogwarts such as school dances or fundraisers, etc. However, I watched an interview (ironically) with Emma Watson about her role in Perks of Being a Wallflower and she was asked what she liked about American high schools and she said she liked the school events such as dances because in England they apparently don’t have many of those things. So technically Hogwarts is just like any other British boarding school. Just thought I would point that out.