Episode 73 – GoF 35: Dog Eat Bone World

Harry has safely brought Cedric’s body back to his parents – but that’s just the start of this large info dump. Join hosts Caleb, Kat, and Laura, with guest host, friend, and expert podcaster Micah Tannenbaum as they discuss Chapter 35 of Goblet of Fire.

On Episode 73 we discuss…

→ Episode 72 Recap: Priori Incantatem; Ghosts & Angels
→ PQOTW Responses
→ Portkey problems
→ Is the Foe-Glass a possessive object?
→ The manipulation of Winky
Question of the Week
→ Check out the Alohomora! Store

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  • sgreybe

    The download link is pointing at last week’s episode “Pope Potter”.

  • elizabeth melas

    How did Harry get back the Marauders map?

    • DolphinPatronus

      I always wondered that too. I feel like I missed something.

      • Honeydukes Empire

        J.K. Rowling said in an interview that, even though it’s not mentioned in the book, Harry broke into fake Moody’s office at some point to get it back after the events at the end of Goblet of Fire.

  • BluntsSnitches&Bathsalts

    Talking about the Marauders Map makes me think of a major flaw: how did Fred and George not see Pettigrew in Ron’s bed for all of those years?

    • DolphinPatronus

      I’ve always found that a bit odd too. Even if they couldn’t tell he was literally in bed with him how did they not realize there was no one with that name currently in Gryffindor House?

      • Honeydukes Empire

        yeah, they must have heard the story about peter supposedly getting blown to pieces too, so wouldn’t they also be suspicious if they saw someone they knew to be dead scurrying around the castle

        • DolphinPatronus

          Well I’m not sure about that. After all Harry only heard it by eavesdropping.

      • BluntsSnitches&Bathsalts

        Ok so I was actually able to find a Rowling quote on the topic.

        “It would not have mattered if they had. Unless somebody was very familiar with the story of Sirius Black (and after all, Sirius was not Mr. and Mrs. Weasley’s best friend – indeed, they never knew him until after he escaped from Azkaban), Fred and George would be unlikely to know or remember that Peter Pettigrew was the person Sirius had (supposedly) murdered. Even if Fred and George HAD heard the story at some point, why would they assume that the ‘Peter Pettigrew’ they occasionally saw moving around the map was, in fact, the man murdered years before? Fred and George used the map for their own mischief-making, so they concentrated, naturally enough, on those portions of the map where they were planning their next misdeeds. And finally, you must not forget that hundreds of little dots are moving around this map at any given time… Fred and George did not know everyone in school by name, so a single unfamiliar name was unlikely to stand out.”

        • AccioPotassium!

          Is it just me, or does this JKR quote seems as if it was said by a fan of the series, and not by the author herself?

          • BluntsSnitches&Bathsalts

            Possibly because she had to think quick and cover the mistake

          • AccioPotassium!

            She can definitely think fast on her feet, because she has left no stone unturned in her response.

  • DolphinPatronus

    I was thinking about the Foe-Glass & I agree with Laura & Caleb. Assuming this theoryis correct & it works more like the Mirror of Erised then it would show the last person that looked INTO it’s enemies. So it would make sense that if Little Crouch was the only one looking into the glass recently Dumbledore, McGonagall & Snape would appear. There are two instances in this book that Harry sees the Foe-Glass & both times he never actually looks directly into the glass he simply looks AT it from a distance. The next time Harry sees it is in OotP when the DA starts using the Room of Requirement this is when he finally looks into it & sees shadowy unrecognizable figures moving around in it. (see OotP page 391 US edition.) If it worked based on ownership I don’t believe Dumbledore or McGonagall would’ve shown up in it because I don’t think the real Moody would view them as enemies. (I think it’s pretty same to assume he was the actual owner…where would Little Crouch of had a chance to get one so quickly otherwise?)

    I think Micah may have been on to something when he mentioned Snape being his own worst enemy. Snape is after all the only one of the three professors that looks into it as he enters the room.

    • BluntsSnitches&Bathsalts

      I agree with the idea of the Foe-Glass working for people in general ownership of it. Similar to lending my computer to a friend; it’s my computer but they could still access it. If it worked for Moody alone(assuming the Foe-Glass can’t be fooled by Polyjuice Potion) wouldn’t Crouch Jr’s face always just appear in it? Moody is in constant mortal peril while no one knows his dire situation. Assuming the Foe-Glass could be hoodwinked by Polyjuice Potion, I still think Crouch Jr would be constantly present in the glass; Moody is still in constant danger and Crouch Jr is still Moody’s immediate enemy regardless. I believe it doesn’t work for Moody(the owner) alone and it detected Crouch Jr through the Polyuice Potion.

      • Elvis Gaunt

        Probably, the Foe-glass belonged to Little Crouch. He may have owned it before he went to Azkaban or created it himself before impersonating Moody.

        • Olivia Underwood

          Agreed. Harry and the DA in fact find it in the Room of Requirement in the next book. Though it was cracked, it apparently was still useable. Why would Mad Eye, or indeed Dumbledore since I’m guessing Mad Eye didn’t know about the RoR, throw away a perfectly good Foe-Glass unless it actually wasn’t theirs to begin with? Unless, of course, Mad Eye didn’t like the idea of using a Foe Glass which had been touched by Crouch Jr’s grubby little fingers…. Just a thought!

          • Leah McCurdy

            That makes a ton of sense! It was Little Crouch’s foe glass all along, otherwise it would have shown himself as the most immediate and close enemy of Moody. Awesome thoughts! I also wanted to add to the debate about whether it is a “mirror” or not. I think it is akin to a mirror. “Glass” is an antiquated synonym for mirror, as in “the looking glass.” So I think JKR certainly created it with a mirror in mind. As for how it works, I think one would have to build its enchantments to work only for oneself, otherwise it would be pretty useless. Anyone could just look in it and screw with your connection is it was not tied to one person. It would be a rather flighty thing if you constantly had to look into it to make sure it was still “calibrated” to track and reflect your own enemies.

          • spellephant

            It seems like such a risky object to keep around Hogwarts. Even if it didn’t show the enemies of the non-owner who looked into it, it still showed Little Crouch’s enemies as being Dumbledore, McGonagall, etc., which would have told them something if they’d ever visited Moody/Crouch’s office through the year. I’m thinking the only way Little Crouch would keep such an object in plain sight would be if it 1) only worked for him, and 2) it only showed his enemies when they presented an immediate threat. If he ever looked into it throughout the year and saw Dumbledore all of the sudden, he’d realize he had been found out and run for it. But as long as the figures remained shadows, he knew he was still safe.

    • Jake Pontzer

      But you can’t see what other people see in the Mirror of Erised, so I don’t really think they’re similar magically. The foe-glass is possessive and only shows one person’s enemies. If the mirror was like the foe glass, Harry would have seen Dumbledore’s family, or he would have seen the greatest desire of whoever “owned” it (probably still dumbledore).

      If the opposite were true and the foe glass was like the mirror, harry would have seen his own enemies in the foe glass. So , again for this reason I don’t think the are similar besides the fact that they both are looked into.

      • DolphinPatronus

        I said it worked similarly not identically. Harry never actually looks directly into the glass while it is in Little Crouch’s possession. If it didn’t always show the last person to look into its enemies it would be useless as a defensive tool.

        • Jake Pontzer

          You mean because the foe-glass would show the possessor’s enemies to everyone else, even if he/she wasn’t present, then that would make it useless? I don’t really understand.

          • DolphinPatronus

            If it didn’t always show the possessor’s enemies even if only as shadowy figures I can’t see how it would be helpful. Since Moody/Crouch implies that the the faces become clearer as the people/enemies get closer I’d assume they were always there. I think the only way for someone else to “activate” it to show their enemies is to look DIRECTLY into it. After all you can look at a mirror/looking glass without looking into it & seeing your own reflection.

          • Jake Pontzer

            Yes I agree with you about the shadowy figures always being there, but I don’t think that other people can just “activate” it–I think it just keeps the possessor’s enemies on it at all times, no matter who is looking at it, directly or not. It’s specific to one person. Do we ever see it showing someone else’s enemies besides Little Crouch’s?

          • DolphinPatronus

            It’s in the Room of Requirement in OotP with all the other Dark Detectors. (page 391 of the US edition) It’s the only time the text specifically says that Harry looks INTO it not AT it.

          • Jake Pontzer

            But it just says that “none were recognizable” (I’m guessing because they were too blurry, not just because they were random people that he didn’t know), so he could be seeing his own enemies, but it’s not stated explicitly. They were probably still Little Crouch’s enemies.

          • DolphinPatronus

            I suppose it’s possible but at that point Little Crouch had been given the Dementor’s Kiss. I can’t imagine he’d have too many enemies anymore. The only other person that it specifically says looks into the glass is Snape & the only face that is clear in it when he looks in it is his own. (Snape is his own worst enemy)

          • Jake Pontzer

            No, no, no.. Snape’s face was in it because he was an enemy of Little Crouch–This is the part that Micah brought up as being strong evidence for Snape being good in retrospect: Because Little Crouch saw him as an enemy. At least I’m pretty sure that’s correct. The book doesn’t say that the other people’s faces have disappeared apart from Snape’s, the narrator just highlights the fact that he’s looking at himself in it. She probably used this as a hint that Snape was good because Voldemort’s most loyal followers (Little Crouch, Bellatrix especially) did not trust him.

            But on that topic, I don’t really see this as a good indicator of Snape’s true intentions. Since he was a double-agent, there were people on both sides who did not trust Snape, and some who may even have seen him as an enemy. If we would have seen Sirius’s foe-glass before the Order was officially reformed at the end of this book, Snape might have been in it. But it doesn’t mean that Snape was bad either.

          • DolphinPatronus

            Little Crouch would certainly see Snape as an enemy either way. As you said very few people actually trust him. Even after the Order is reformed Sirius is still skeptical of what side Snape is truly on. So I agree that this isn’t really a very good indicator of his true alliance.

          • BluntsSnitches&Bathsalts

            I think it only shows enemies who are directly threatening the person looking into it. Voldemort could’ve been one of the shadowy figures or maybe Umbridge. But unless they are an immediate threat they won’t appear clearly. Enemies of people are ever-changing so I think the shadowy figures are relative to the moment.

    • phoenixflame22

      with regards to the Foe-Glass, if the figures in the reflection are enemies then the Foe-Glass most likely is possessive because if it was just like a mirror that showed your enemies, wouldn’t that make Dumbledore, McGonagall and Snape Harry’s enemies, as Harry is the one looking into the Foe-Glass?

  • Dobby’s Sock

    Regarding the Barty Crouches not being given different names on the Marauder’s Map: the magic of the map would work in one of two ways:

    1) It goes by the name on the birth certificate of the person in question. People who are given the prefix Senior/Junior usually don’t have this on their birth certificate (for example, after Barty Crouch senior’s son was born, would he change his own birth ceritificate to add the prefix Senior? Of course not).

    2) It goes by what the individual person would call themselves. This is much more likely, as magic seems inherently more tied to a person’s soul than to bits of beuracratic paper like a birth certificate. Unless the person is called “Junior” as their entire name, I think most people would consider their own full name (minus the Junior/Senior) as their actual name; and the senior/junior prefix is simply for others to clarify the person they’re talking about.

    So, in both cases, it does make sense that only “Barty Crouch” is specified on the map.

    • Raven

      I wonder what Ginny’s dot would say on the map. If it would say Ginerva Weasley or Ginny Weasley. And does Ron’s dot say Ron or Ronald?

      • madame_lestrange

        I’m pretty sure it would say Ronald and Ginerva. I don’t think the map has enough consciousness to recognize nicknames.

        • Claire Marie

          I agree that the map could not recognize nicknames. Little Crouch shows up as Bartemius Crouch and I believe they both go by Barty.

  • IceBender07

    Everybody keeps wounding about the Tri-wizard Cup and why it took Harry back the the Maze at Hogwarts. I myself Simply thought that it was a portkey to begin with. I believed that the Tri-wizard cup was always planed to be a portkey to take what ever champion who got to it first back to the front of the maze. Of course they would only make it so the cup would activated when it was put in the center of the maze.

    They problem was Fake Moody was the one to put the cup in the maze, and in doing so he placed a second portkey spell over the first. I would assume Dumbledore was the one who placed the first portkey spell on the cup and that Fake Moody would have had a hard time reseting it and instead place a second portkey spell on top of it. So When Harry and Cedric touched Moody’s portkey it was activated and sent them to the graveyard. After that the cup then became the portkey that Dumbledore meant to be.

    • Mysterium Scriptor

      That is the conclusion I had arrived to as well – unless Moody-Crouch and Voldemort had planned to send back Harry’s dead body back to Hogwarts at the start of the maze.

    • madame_lestrange

      I had never thought of this before but it makes complete sense. I love it.

    • Silverdoe25

      Duh. I feel dumb that I just posted that without reading the thread all the way through. Totally agree with that theory.

  • AccioPotassium!

    What do you suppose would have happened to little Crouch, if he’d carries out his plan of murdering Harry Potter after the Dark lord fail to do the same? Would Voldemort reward him past any other Death Eater? Or judging how Tom Riddle reacted in the graveyard, would the Dark Lord be furious with Barty Crouch Jr. and severely punish him for his act?

    • Olivia Underwood

      I would guess that he would be beyond furious, haha… No, he would certainly have killed Crouch Jr, without question, as killing Harry personally was the first and most important goal for him in order to truly return to his former state before Godric’s Hollow.

      • AccioPotassium!

        I’m not sure the Dark Lord would immediately murder little Crouch, because it may come down to if Voldemort can afford a loss of a loyal servant at this particular time. His numbers of Death Eaters have diminished since the last wizarding war and Barty Crouch Jr. would be extremely useful player in the game to take down the Order of the Phoenix & the Ministry of Magic.

        • Silverdoe25

          I always thought that Crouch was really deluded on that point. Voldemort would not have looked kindly on someone else killing Harry. It would only have demonstrated a weakness for Voldemort. As of Goblet, this is the 3rd time Harry has triumphed over him (assuming that Voldemort is currently unaware that he also defeated the horcrux in Chamber). Voldemort has always wanted to take care of Harry himself.

  • Bryan Levine

    I’m confused about Moody/Crouch’s invisibility cloak which was in the trunk. Why does it look essentially the same as Harry’s? I thought JKR went to great lengths in the seventh book to point out that Harry’s cloak
    was unique in that it makes the wearer truly invisible, and thus is one of the Hallows. Did anyone else notice this? Is this just a plot-hole, or is there some other explanation?

    • AccioPotassium!

      I don’t think Moody’s invisibility cloak contradicts later information. We only see the cloak for a short time period in the trunk and I’m sure if they would have investigated little Crouch’s invisibility cloak closer, we would see many differences compared to Harry’s cloak.

      • Jake Pontzer

        I think the main difference between Harry’s cloak and all others is how long Harry’s has lasted throughout potentially hundreds of years. I don’t remember who said it in Deathly Hallows that most cloaks lose their enchantment after a while. But Harry’s true Cloak of Invisibility has not lost its power.

        • DolphinPatronus

          I wanna say Ron or Mr. Lovegood but I could be wrong.

        • AccioPotassium!

          I don’t have Deathly Hallows with me at the moment, however according to Harry Potter wiki page, it was Xenophilius Lovegood who gave the information.

    • Silverdoe25

      Hallows makes it clear that there are other cloaks. I’m currently reading OotP, and Moody is looking to pick up another invisibility cloak as Sturgeous Podmore still hasn’t returned “his good one”, showing that the cloaks vary in quality.

  • madame_lestrange

    The discussion about whether or not Mrs Crouch would revert back to her appearance an hour after her death really intrigued me. Intuitively, I would assume that the body would remain as it were at the time of death — that is to say, if Mrs. Crouch died looking like Little Crouch, that’s the way her body would stay. When one dies, aging and many other (but not all) bodily function cease to happen. Thus, why would the body change back to Mrs. Crouch if she died with the physical appearance of Little Crouch? To me, the changing from one physical appearance to another seems to be a bodily function thus it, too, would stop happening.

    On a related note, in this chapter, we learn that Little Crouch kept Moody alive to be able to use his hair for the Polyjuice Potion. But why wouldn’t Little Crouch just shave Moody’s hair and keep using that for the Polyjuice Potion? Does this imply that the Polyjuice Potion will only work if the person is alive? In that case, how does the Potion know?

    • AccioPotassium!

      I agree with you on Mrs. Crouch would most likely continue to have the appearance of her son even after one hour since her death, however because skin & digestive system continues to work even after death, I don’t think Mrs. Crouch’s disguise would last for a long period of time.

      • Claire Marie

        I think the Polyjuice potion relies on living tissue and cells to change the appearance of the consumer. If Mrs Crouch dies, then I would assume she would remain in the appearance of her son as long as the potion does not wear off before rigor-mortis sets in. At that point, I believe the tissue and skin cells start to deteriorate so rapidly that a change in appearance would not be possible from that point forward.

        Also on p. 529 of the US edition, Sirius says, “He died about a year after they brought him in.” (I think there was a timeline question of how long Jr/his mother were in Azkaban.) Sirius also says, “Crouch never came back for his son’s body. The dementors buried him outside the fortress; I watched them do it.” Obviously if Mrs. Crouch changed back into her own appearance then Sirius would have seen her being buried rather than the person he thought was Jr.

        Last thing: as for the efficient burial process, Sirius says that you could tell when someone was about to die because the dementors got excited.

    • BluntsSnitches&Bathsalts

      Either way the blind Dementors bury her but Sirius acknowledges he saw them bury her in a previous chapter in this book – “Padfoot Returns”.He thinks it’s little Crouch which implies she didn’t change form yet.

    • Silverdoe25

      The text also talks about keeping Moody alive so Crouch could learn all about him to be able to fool even Dumbledore. I’d bet he learns more stuff over time.

      • madame_lestrange

        My problem with this is that Little Crouch only needed to be Moody for a finite amount of time, no? Little Crouch could stop being Moody when Voldemort was back.

    • spellephant

      I’d never thought of it this way, but that makes a lot of sense. We know that the power of certain enchantments break when their castor dies, but I can’t think of any example where a potion or spell stops working on the drinker/castee upon their death. If it were, say, a potion to cure boils (which I just grabbed off the HP wiki), I don’t think the person would suddenly develop boils if they died. If they remained alive, most likely they’d have to take the potion again, because their natural body processes would continue and it would become necessary to drink another dose eventually. Their body would overcome the power of the potion, and then it would cease to work. But like you said, if they die, their body processes stop. The potion is no longer working against natural processes in order to have an effect.

  • madame_lestrange

    On a completely unrelated note, can Micah please be on every episode? He’s insane and I love it.

    • Dr. LeStrangeLove

      Ugh, I vote against this proposal. Micah always seems out of it, awakening only to propose yet another sexual explanation or other bizarre and annoying comment. He doesn’t read the chapter, doesn’t bring creative explanations to mysteries, and serves mostly to derail the conversation.

  • AccioPotassium!

    I want to know how little Crouch cared for the real Moody during the course of the school year. How did he feed and remove Moody’s waste in his seven layer trunk?

    • BluntsSnitches&Bathsalts

      Scourgify to clean and probably just gave him enough scraps to survive. Not like the real Moody could fight back without his wand

      • AccioPotassium!

        I don’t know, Mad-eye could be rather moody at times and it must have cost little Crouch an arm and a leg just to keep an eye on Moody.

        • DolphinPatronus

          LOL I see what you did there ;)

  • Silverdoe25

    I was thinking about both the foe glass and the Tri Wizard cup. First, I think it is neat that the foe glass is obviously not hoodwinked by the appearance change of polyjuice potion, because it is clearly showing Little Crouch’s enemies, even though he physically looks like Moody.

    About the Tri Wizard cup, it may be possible that it was turned into a portkey to transport the first person who touches it from the center of the maze to the outside. That’s how the winner is determined. It would be kind of lame for the spectators to have to wait for the winner to find his or her way out of the maze. Then, perhaps Little Crouch put a second portus spell on the cup to have it go to the graveyard first. The image of James seems to know that Harry has to get back to the cup so he can return to Hogwarts, which also seems to be an indicator that a portkey can be a round trip device.

  • ArchdukeSeverus

    I thought that it was interesting looking at the effects of the Veritaserum potion. It seemed that once you had taken a potion and were asked a question you would go into some kind trance when giving the answer. So in this way you didn’t have any control over what you are saying. You see this in this chapter because it constantly mentions Little Crouch’s eyes flickering whenever he was asked a question.
    What I found interesting is that the potion when you are under a trance makes you divulge details in the answer to the questions not just enough information to be telling the truth. I was wondering what type of effect the potion was actually having on the drinker because it seemed slightly as though it was putting the drinkers mind under the control of the questioner as the drinker would always answer the questions exactly how the questioner wanted them to. Is it possible that Veritaserum has some type of link to the imperius curse as they both seem to control peoples minds? The mind control magic we see in the series I got to say seem to be the ones that infringe people’s rights the most and are also seemingly the most dangerous.

  • ArchdukeSeverus

    When Harry was lying on the ground after teleporting back from the graveyard he was nearly passing out. If he had passed out I think that he would have probably started to see Voldemort’s rage in the graveyard after Harry left.
    This would have been a fascinating scene to see as we would have seen Voldemort really punishing the Death Eaters for not finding him because he is so angry about Harry’s escape and we would have seen him putting the Death Eaters to work. Also it could be possible that Voldemort could have become aware of the connection between him and Harry at this point and possibly attempted to use it against Harry.

  • ArchdukeSeverus

    Little Crouch seemed to know how Voldemort used Harry to help him come back because when Harry told him that Voldemort had taken his blood Little Crouch seemed to relax. I believe that the potion thing is linked to horcruxes, so Little Crouch knowing about it made me wonder whether Little Crouch knows/knew about horcruxes. I don’t think he did, but if I assume for a moment that he did then I think that it is possible that he may have attempted to make way. Of course this is all hypothetical (get the reference) and I don’t think that he created a horcrux but if he did it would be curious to have seen what would have happened to it when Crouch lost his soul to the dementors. Would the horcrux keep him alive or be able to restore him to health it would it lose it’s effect.
    This also made me think of the question do horcruxes stop people from dying of old age?

    • AccioPotassium!

      I don’t think his Horcrux would protect Crouch from the whole dementor’s kiss. The part of his soul in his body would be kissed out & digested by the Dementor. However there is still another piece of little Crouch left in some random object, so someone else probably has to use this object to bring back Barty, in some unknown action, maybe something similar to the process of the Dark Lord’s rebirth? What do you suppose little Crouch’s Horcrux object would be?

      • ArchdukeSeverus

        The bone he transfigured his father into was my first thought but I will have to think about this.

        • AccioPotassium!

          My first candidate would be a Zac Efron poster, followed by Winky the house-elf. She would do it in a heartbeat.

          • DolphinPatronus

            I think he used the TARDIS :P

          • AccioPotassium!

            His sonic screwdriver could be a better option because of its size, however as Captain Harkness always said “Who looks at a Horcrux and thinks, “Ooh, this could be a little more sonic”?

          • DolphinPatronus

            Lol I actually just watched that episode last week.

  • Dr. LeStrangeLove

    On a somewhat different topic, how did Dumbledore know to summon Winky to the interrogation of Lesser Crouch? It does not make sense for Winky to be there unless Dumbledore knows the identity of the person who is impersonating Moody. Do you think Dumbledore knows that it’s Crouch, or guesses, or just randomly thinks Winky will add something to the conversation?

    • Snape’sLonelyShampoo

      I wondered this too. Dumbledore has been trying to solve a number of mysteries since the beginning of the book: who put Harry’s name in the Goblet, where is Bertha Jorkins, Snape’s Dark Mark getting stronger, and the disappearance of Crouch Senior. When Harry told Dumbledore that Voldemort was back, perhaps Dumbledore was able to make a vague guess as to the person who might be behind it. Mr Crouch had been behaving strangely all year, and Dumbledore was present at his son’s trial as a Deatheater. He had been thinking about Crouch Jnr’s trial in the pensieve

      • Snape’sLonelyShampoo

        …and Dumbledore has known Crouch Senior so long, he might have known that his son would be the only possible cause of such strange behaviour …bit of a leap to conclude that he must still be alive though. Maybe he just thought whoever was masquerading as Moody must have killed Crouch Snr too, and Winky would need to be involved?!