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 Post subject: Episode 23, PoA 7-8: Magical Exterminator
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 5:44 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Episode 23, PoA 7-8: Magical Exterminator
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:39 pm 
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When you guys mentioned whether or not Lupin was the Hermione or Neville of his time it really made me see a parallel. I see James as the Harry, Sirius as the Ron, Lupin as the Hermione and Peter as the Neville.

-The James/Harry comparison is obvious. Not only are they father and son, but over and over their similarities are described in the books. They’re both the “leaders” of their groups and they both have the uncanny ability to ignore the rules. They’re also both extremely loyal to their friends. I do see James as more arrogant than Harry, but I think a lot of that comes down to upbringing, I wonder if Harry would have been more arrogant if he had a happier childhood.

-There are more differences between Sirius and Ron, but I still think it fits well. Ron and Sirius both come from families where they feel like outsiders (Ron feels like he’ll never live up to his brothers and Sirius really is an outsider.) They’re both the “best friend,” and like Sirius, Ron also seems to easily disregard the rules. Both Ron and Sirius are always in it for a good time, and they don’t seem to think about consequences. Sirius and Ron both show that they would (sometimes literally) walk through fire for their best friends.

-I think the Lupin/Hermione comparison is obvious as well. For starters, they’re the real brains behind their groups and the loyal compass. I can easily see James and Sirius running to Lupin for answers just as Harry and Ron run to Hermione. They’re also the “good” ones of their group and they tend to try (sometimes futilely) to keep their friends on the straight and narrow. Just as I’ve said of the other two, Lupin and Hermione are also loyal friends, and will break rules if it means doing what’s right.

-When comparing Peter and Neville, I’ve got to make one distinction; Neville is a far braver and better person that Peter ever tried to be. However, they are the “weak” members of their group. It seems that Peter may have been more “in” with his crowd than Neville was with the Trio, but I think we have to remember that in the end Neville is the one person Harry trusts the secret of the Horcruxes too, he trusts him to join Ron and Hermione in the fight. In the same way, in the end James trusts Peter as secret keeper.

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 Post subject: Re: Episode 23, PoA 7-8: Magical Exterminator
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 11:03 pm 

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I haven't finished listening to the whole podcast yet, but I just wanted to say one thing about the memory charms: I've always gotten the impression that they caused the memory to be suppressed in the person's mind instead of wiped out entirely. We know that Voldemort is able to break through the memory charm Crouch placed on Bertha Jorkins, and Dumbledore breaks the charm Voldemort put on Morfin, so the memories must have been there all along. Slughorn also had the real memory about the horcruxes even after he had tampered with it, because he was able to give it to Harry. As for Hermione and her parents, maybe it's easier to remove your own memory charms, but any skilled witch or wizard can bring the suppressed memories back.


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 Post subject: Re: Episode 23, PoA 7-8: Magical Exterminator
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:51 am 
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Great show as usual guys, a few points:

On Hermione and Trelawney
I think you guys were a little harsh on Hermione. There is definitely an element of hurt pride in terms of not being good at the subject – but her strongest reasons for disliking Trelawney are good ones. In her first lesson Trelawney predicts that Harry is going to die – and moreover she does so for no other reason than to cause a fuss and show off. As McGonagall tells us, she does this every year. Trelawney also uses cheap tricks to upset people and bring them closer to believing in her nonsense. Hermione is absolutely right in her assessment of the prediction regarding the rabbit – Trelawney knows what she’s doing there, it’s a trick that any fortune teller uses, and Hermione is right to be a little disgusted by that.

On Lupin’s Curriculum & Boggarts
Two connected points here. Let’s not forget how far behind the Hogwarts students are in DADA. Is it Snape that points out that most of Lupin’s classes are stuff the students should have learned in first year? This isn’t Lupin’s fault but the class are behind. The reason that I bring this up is that, much as the Lupin being a magical exterminator idea is glorious and I love it, I think what we are really meant to be taking from this is that any wizard would know exactly what to do with all the creatures Lupin exposes the students too. They are magical pests more than anything.

To answer one of the comments in the episode, I think that the reason for the rather vague and silly shapes the Boggart takes on is to show a comparison between the darkness Harry has seen and the quiet lives the rest of the students have experienced. Remember how young these kids are – what do they have to be scared of? Is it any wonder that they can think of nothing scarier than spiders or mummies? I think this gets the point across that Harry has seen some truly horrible things at such a young age, and this is why the Dementors hit him so hard.

Lupin, Snape & Neville
Just a quick comment on this topic. One thing that isn’t always commented on enough is that characters make mistakes, we often assume that everything in the books was deliberate. I think Lupin actually regretted the Snape episode with Neville. At the time it was funny but I think Lupin would have quickly realised just how much trouble he had accidently put Neville in regarding Snape. I think one of the reasons he is so nice to Neville in the aftermatch is that he realises this mistake.

And the comments on Snape bullying Neville are interesting too. Is it not the case that most bullys were themselves bullied? I think there is an element of this and also an element of Snape being seduced by the power that he has. But I think there is also a sense that Snape is angered that Neville refuses to stand up for himself. One of Snapes greatest prides is that he has made something of himself – just think of the ‘don’t call me a coward!’. He became what he did due to hard work and throwing off a sense of being useless. When he sees Neville failing to do the same I think he gets frustrated and rather than help Neville, as he should, he thinks that treating him harshly might make him realise this. Hence the toad.

On Relationships
Direct answer – there’s a great interview somewhere in which JKR talks about how funny she found the Harry/Luna theories. I thought there might have been something developing there and apparently the idea is hilarious to JKR who had in no way intended there to be anything there whatsoever.


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 Post subject: Re: Episode 23, PoA 7-8: Magical Exterminator
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:59 pm 

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Hey guys, great shows as always!

I don't have much to say this episode; you guys covered all my thoughts, but on the topic of relationships, the one that I think of most is Dean and Seamus. Before I even knew what 'shipping' was, I always imagined that those two were together. The books seem to imply that the two are in fact in a relationship, or at least in the beginning stages of one. Of course I could be reading too much into it, but I've always thought Jo wrote them to be a couple.


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 Post subject: Re: Episode 23, PoA 7-8: Magical Exterminator
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 4:21 pm 
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Then I ask, as I usually do, for your evidence. This certainly is not directly stated in the text (so far as I recall), nor is it extra-textual canon provided by the author. I always thought the Harmony shippers were out of their minds, and at least with those two, we see a lot more interaction between the two characters than we ever do with Dean and Seamus, so there was more material to harvest for speculation.

In case you haven't figured it out by now, I favor a rather strict interpretation of the text. Not that convincing me should be your primary goal, but know that if you ARE going to convince me of the possibility or, even further, the likelihood of something that is not directly stated in the text, you will need some decent evidence.

So... I look forward to seeing this, and I hope you will oblige me. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Episode 23, PoA 7-8: Magical Exterminator
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 7:59 pm 
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Like JulianGray, I don't have a lot to say either. You guys eventually got to all the comments I yell our as I listen. (For example, "The bogart dementor makes Harry woozy!")

I enjoyed how loopy you all got during Noah's chapter. There were lots of jokes, and it was a laid back off-the-cuff side of you I haven't really heard before. Also, no offense to Noah who is great, but if you have Michael around, why bother having anyone else read passages? I am a big fan of his.

This was a great episode. I missed Rosie and Kat, but overall, this one had the perfect pace and ratio of extras to chapter analysis, in my opinion. Kudos!

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 Post subject: Re: Episode 23, PoA 7-8: Magical Exterminator
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:08 am 

Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2012 8:42 pm
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Regarding the questions of memory charms and whether dementors have the ability to make victims of the Memory Charm relive their memories:
First let us distinguish memory magic:

The Memory Charm, with the incantation of "Obliviate". Used by Gilderoy Lockhart on Harry and Ron, Barty Crouch Sr. on Bertha Jorkins, Hermione on Rowle and Dolohov are just three of the examples I will be discussing later.I have always had the thought, like some other readers, that the Memory Charm does not literally erase a memory, but covers it up with....blankness. It's more like using liquid paper rather than an eraser.


A False Memory Charm is to alter the memory instead of erasing it, which is the one Hermione used on her parents, and possibly similar to the magic Voldemort uses on Harry, to make him believe that Sirius was being held captive at the Department of Mysteries. Slughorn also used this one on himself.

Torture can also affect the memory. The Longbottoms' memory have been twisted and distorted not by memory charms, but by immense torture. In this case, it seem like a very hard eraser has been used to rub their memory off. Torturing people can also break memory charms, as Voldemort has done to Bertha Jorkins. This can be seen as the very hard eraser rubbing off the liquid paper, and to some extent, tearing the whole paper, thus making Bertha Jorkins losing her mind like the Longbottoms before she was being killed. It is unknown why Rowle and Dolohov have not remembered seeing Ron in the cafe after being tortured by Voldemort, but my guess is that Voldemort was just so emotionally angry that he did not use the Cruciatus Curse specifically to break the memory charm, but merely to punish his servants. Unlike the above two methods of playing with memories, this method cannot choose a time span of memory to be forgotten or remembered.

The confundus charm also seems eligible to be placed in memory-related magic, but I still do not understand why it's possible to use this instead of the Imperius curse, with similar results (Snape confunding Mundungus with the 7 Potter Plan).

Legilimency also contains memories, but memories in this case is only part of the pack. Legilimency is used to read minds (whatever Snape puts it), and thus gives the oppresor a chance to navigate into the part of the brain which stores memories. I see legilimency as a higher level of memory-related magic, but it doesn't limit itself to memory.

With dementors let's imagine the cases of 3: Obliviated, false memory implanted, and tortured. Dementors suck out all the happiness, and so, rather like osmosis, bad memories reveal themselves from the subconscious. It takes the willpower to hold on to the happiest memory, to produce a Patronus.
I do not believe that a victim of the Memory Charm can relive any bad memory that has been erased. Lockhart will not remember anything that has happened before he accidentally obliviated himself. If he comes across a dementor, he might remember of loosing his memories, but nothing before that. (His case is quite complicated because I do not think he intended to make Harry forget everything. I choose to believe that he only wanted to cause Harry to forget about things related to their adventure, but that the backfiring of the charm altered its original purpose).

False memories are easier to be uplifted, and I believe that dementors can indeed make victims of this charm relive bad memories which have, in any case, been altered. Say for example, a person's devastating memory of seeing someone die has been altered to seeing a person sleeping. Should this person come across a dementor, I'd say that he will remember, suddenly, that he saw death instead of sleep. Hermione's parents, after believing themselves as Wendell and Monica Wilkins, for instance, might suddenly remember that their daughter fell down her bicycle when she was young. Whether they would cling on to this memory of having a daughter, or see it as a hallucination, I do not know.

Tortured people will definitely see themselves tortured, or in any case, any worse memory that happened after the torture, should they come face to face with a dementor. Like the victims of total Memory Charms, I do not believe that they will remember anything that happened before.

Apologies for making this so long. Please tell me if I skipped a logic.


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 Post subject: Re: Episode 23, PoA 7-8: Magical Exterminator
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:12 am 

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Oh and regarding Hermione's grudge with divination, it all starts from the SC Ch.15, where she says, "Anyway,
who says the centaurs are right? It sounds like fortune-telling to me, and Professor McGonagall says that's a very imprecise branch of magic." Her similarity with McGonagall is also apparent here.


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 Post subject: Re: Episode 23, PoA 7-8: Magical Exterminator
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:31 pm 
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LeslieLovegood wrote:
When you guys mentioned whether or not Lupin was the Hermione or Neville of his time it really made me see a parallel. I see James as the Harry, Sirius as the Ron, Lupin as the Hermione and Peter as the Neville.




Hmm, I think some of these are a bit of a stretch. We could equate Sirius to Ron as the loyal best friend, irresponsible and easy-going, but the similarities end here. I don't see Ron as feeling as an outsider within his family. Sure, he had a lot to live up to and an overbearing mother, but he was loved by his family and felt comfortable in it. Sirius was not and had to look for a family elsewhere. In this, he is more equated to Harry. Sirius was also an extremely confident person, while Ron had low self-esteem.

Regarding Lupin/Hermione, I have always thought there were some similarities between them. They both seem the bookish type and definitely their respective groups' moral compass. Though I disagree with Remus being the "real brains" and I don't know why lots of people think this way. It is said (by McGonagal, no less) James and Sirius were "exceptionally bright" and Remus himself said they were "the best in the school at whatever they did". I really don't see either James or Sirius going to Remus for answers. Copying his homework though? Probably :lol: But due to laziness, not lack of ability.

There is definitely room for a group comparison so to speak, but it's more of a general comparison. When you look closely at it, there are more differences than similarities between them and you could make the case for a whole different number of connections.


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